Joe Dolcetti is a futurist and an innovator in the field of human performance with an intimate and innate understanding of human movement and flow. He has a conditioning training, coaching and sport science career that has spanned over 31 years around the globe and has had the very fortunate opportunity to work with and learn from many of the world’s top sporting programs. This has given him a truly global understanding of human adaptation to training.
As a creative force and leader in the field of high performance Joe conceptualized, developed and launched the LILA EXOGEN Exoskeleton line, the world’s most advanced wearable resistance technology which is rapidly gaining ground as a potentially game changing transference tool for specific strengthening and movement coaching. Exogen is being hailed as ‘ground-breaking’ and ‘revolutionary’ by top coaches and sport scientists globally including the renowned Dr. John Cronin who currently oversees LILA’s world class research team at AUT – SPRINZ.
'The problem is we start with the solution before we understood the problem.' Joe Dolcetti Klick um zu Tweeten
In this episode I discuss with him :
- integrating kaos into teaching and athletic performance
- the evolution of strength training for elite sports
- how to create a world class performance facility
- using innovative loading principles to improve speed and power in elite athletes
- a new approach to improve motor learning while ‘playing the game’
- his boxing skills & Malaysian thunderstorms
'If you don't have skin in the game, there's no learning happening.' Joe Dolcetti Klick um zu Tweeten
You can find out more about him and his projects at www.movementrevolution.com
The Order & Kaos of Human Potential – the podcast about the science and the art, the known and the unknown territories of human performance and health.
Gerrit Keferstein: Welcome back, everybody. Gerrit Keferstein here. It’s been a real busy week for me. I’ve been traveling a lot and I’m so happy to be back in my current base here back in Sonora on Bali. I’ve been to Adelaide, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur and Hong Kong all within 13 days. in Adelaide I was brought in by Tom Patrick of the South Australian Sports Institute. Really I had an awesome time there. They brought me in to consult on regeneration but really I felt like I learned more from them than they probably learned from me. It was really great experience there. I spent some time with the track cycling team of Australia and with coach Lynn Monroe and she does a fantastic job there, managing the training process and managing communicating with the athletes. I was really, really impressed by that. I had a couple of beers with the sports physiologists and the strength coaches and it was just great to share their view on things and share my view on things too. Then we went to Singapore. The reason for that was not work but it was fun. I had my first Brazilian Jujitsu competition and it was awesome. It was really cool. It was awesome for me to be back competing again since I stopped playing football. It’s been five years since I last really competed, not in training but real competition. So, that was real cool for me. I had a silver medal. It’s actually perfect. I lost one match and I won a match. So, it’s a good balance. The Brooklyn Monk told me it’s always good to win one match and lose one match. Then you don’t have to deal with being undefeated or having not ever won one match. So, it was actually perfect. It was a lot of fun. And then I went to Kuala Lumpur to the Olympic Council of Malaysia and I visited Joe Dolcetti there, which this podcast is about. I’m going to tell you a little bit more about Joe in a short while. And then after that I had four days in Hong Kong and the goal for that trip to Hong Kong was to speak to a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine. I mean, obviously we have those in the United States, we have those in Canada and we have those in Germany but the goal of this podcast is to really dig to the roots of the things and to the things in between the lines that’s not written in books and I want to find those people that basically don’t have the time to write books because they’re so busy finding the real world solutions. I think I found one of them and that’s a traditional Chinese doctor and this podcast I’m going to publish next week.
Regarding medicine, there’s a new article in the blog. It’s called Practical Difference Between Conventional And Alternative Medicine. My motivation behind that blog post was I’ve always felt like I’m between two opposing entities and one of them is the conventional medicine entity and one of them is the alternative medicine entity. I’ve trained in conventional medicine in Germany. I’ve gone through all the evidence-based medicine you can go through. And I’ve always felt some heat against practitioners of alternative medicine but me being a coach, working with athletes on a daily basis, I’ve always found that there are some things that are not in the academic sciences that actually really work in the real world and I see it with my office on a daily basis. We do something, be it a nutritional intervention or supplementation or training regime, and we see the results but there’s no academic research on that. And then sports scientists come in and say “Hey, why do you do that? There’s no research on it.” I don’t really care. There’s results and that’s why I always sympathize with practitioners or some practitioners of alternative medicine because they have a similar mindset. They just care about the results of the single patient they have in front of them. And it’s good if there’s economic research for it but it’s not always the case. So, I always felt like I’m in between those because the alternative medicine practitioners, they’re always bashing the conventional medicine practitioners; the conventional medicine practitioners are bashing than the alternative medicine but I don’t think that’s necessary. I think there are some key similarities and there are some key things that differentiate the approach that the people, that the general mindset, just the approach and I think I summarized it pretty well in the new article. So, check it out. Let me we know what you think.
Also, I added a new feature on the home page. It’s called the subscribe button. Somebody recommended to me I should add a subscribe button and I did and it’s right on top of the home page. And when you subscribe there … Really I’m not going to get on your nerves, I hate spam, my mailbox is full all the time, I hate when somebody sends me unnecessary and unvaluable information. So, I’m not going to do that. What I’m going to do is once a month you’re going to get an email from me with the top articles of that month and that’s it. So, in case you don’t check your homepage every day like most people obviously do, in case you don’t do that, you get an update once a month. So, subscribe.
And now, let’s get to it. Joe Dolcetti, he’s of mixed Canadian and Italian heritage as his name kind of suggests and I met this really, really interesting guy in the Netherlands. It was last year. We were both invited by Henk Kreijenhof for a really small seminar that Hank held in close to Amsterdam and it was a really good seminar and Joe came in all the way from Malaysia to present on his ideas. And he’s been in the trenches from, I think, the last 30-40 years. He’s been a strength conditioning coach since the East. So, he’s been there from the beginning of when strength conditioning really came about within sports and he started in Canada but the last 17 years he’s been in Malaysian at the Malaysian Olympic Council and he’s not only there for coaching but he’s also had a really interesting idea that we’re going to talk about. He developed a product based on that idea. We’re going to talk about that. So, we will discuss The Order And Kaos because before I hit the record button I told him about The Order And Kaos, what my ideas of that were and how that relates to human performance and he just rambles on. He’s really good at that. He can just pick up sub-topic and just go on. It’s really interesting. A lot of learning is in there. We talk about order and chaos in the training process and then we talk about his invention and that’s an idea that can significantly improve movement efficiencies, speed and power in elite athletes, not only beginners but in really, really good athletes. So, check it out. I wish you a lot of fun.
Joe Dolcetti: The difference between teachers and practitioners, the difference between those who teach and those that do because where we get in trouble in coaching, as we just talk about training is we teach in a controlled environment so people can take us in into another controlled environment. It happens in everything. We go into school and we spend all this time learning in a controlled environment and then you go to work, your real first day of work and that is chaos – boss is pissed off, new people here, some are good, some are bad, things aren’t going well, money’s not coming in your company, sales have dropped and you’re thrown into a chaotic environment where somehow that nice simple structure where you had seven days to work on your project and do this and do all that, it doesn’t apply anymore and the gap is always in those situations which is probably 80% – 90% of the basic format that we use in education is “How do I adapt something learned in a controlled environment into a chaotic environment?” In sports it’s the same. We break down a situation, we put a skill into a single-factor problem but when they actually face that issue in a sporting situation, it’s very multifactorial. And one thing I always recognized about teachers is teachers often have a massive disconnect between the chaos world. So, even on a personal level, a lot of teachers I know both in the school system and in coaching, are very comfortable in the controlled environment and they really are not only not comfortable in a chaotic environment, they don’t really understand but a lot of the practical people that I met were extremely comfortable by the chaotic environment.
Gerrit Keferstein: Comfortable being uncomfortable?
Joe Dolcetti: And you know what? They’re frustrated by the controls and I’m one of those guys. I look at them and I’m very comfortable in a chaotic environment and I always was but I’ve also spent a long time teaching. One reason I think I’ve had fairly good success in terms of the outcome of the student is I’ve always been a part of a group that kept saying “This is what we’re learning but I’ll tell you right now that’s not going to apply. This is what you’re going to see.” And so, one thing I’ve built into all my learning modules in the sports field was we built in chaos into the system and it’s like a dimension to your rearing. In sports council when the sports scientists were coming in after the university to meet Joe and start learning about applying that at the high-performance institute and they were still expecting me to force feed them or hand feed them our education. And then I was like “No, you’re going to use this daily.” And one of the first things I did is they actually had to start coaching themselves. So, we put them through training programs and they had to train themselves in six-week modules in strength and speed and power, something they’ve never done before.
Gerrit Keferstein: So, actually, you’re setting the environment and say “Okay, here’s the challenge. You go find a solution.” That’s the real teaching because that’s the teaching in a chaotic and a non-predictable environment.
Joe Dolcetti: And you see this very well and this is one of the reasons I like the X-Games and the whole concept of outdoor activity because the outdoor activity in X-Games module’s mindset is everybody is comfortable with chaos and they have incredible technical skill but they’re in a very uncontrolled environment. Their uncontrolled environment is Mother Nature. And so, you see these outdoor learning schools, all experiential. A lot of it is you’re kind of left to that and the better instructors know how to build you to that point where you’re allowed to explore chaos from a fairly safe side but at some point the safety net is pulled away and that’s really, really important.
Gerrit Keferstein: There’s this guy, Nassim Nicolas Taleb, he was a broker, he started developing this interest of probability and what probability means for real life that he did all those kinds of skin in the game and he said “If you don’t have skin in the game, there’s no learning happening.” Skin in the game is if you’re on the rock face and you can fall and you can hurt yourself, that puts you with your skin in the game with real consequence.
Joe Dolcetti: And what will happen? You will behave differently. And here’s an interesting … I had a concept, very similar to a guy from a very young age, one thing I developed in my own mentality was I knew as a person that I never wanted to have a plan B because if I have a plan B, my plan A will be flopped but if I have no plan B, then the only option I have is plan A. Then I have to ensure plan A succeeds. And if it doesn’t, well, I’ll deal with that but if I already know there’s a net there, then may be that bearing doesn’t have to be as strong as I thought. That hope or that anchor doesn’t have to be exactly secure and you will do small subtle things that are different when you know there’s nothing.
Gerrit Keferstein: There’s a lot of senses involved. If you know you could fall, oh, your cells are going to be in it.
Joe Dolcetti: Now, I’ll give you this example in terms of boxing. Last night they had boxing. So, we’re going through a series of drills in a controlled sparring, like most of our sparring is controlled. So, just going through controlled sparring sessions but in the learning they’re learn going through a combination. So, we were working on a combination where, again, you’re going to attack a defender. I’m Kneading, Kneading, Kneading, Kneading and then I’m going to throw combination. As soon as I have thrown my combination, you can counter but you can’t counter, you can’t punch until my combination is coming. And so, I am reacting also to not just on the combination but also to think about defense. The funny thing is the guy I was with was working on a combination, working on a combination. I said “All right, now, you throw me a counter.” And the moment he threw in his counter, everything changed because I also got hit. And it’s not a soft hit. It was a full-on smashing. This is a big Russian guy I’m always sparring. And without the helmet because once I got countered, my combination before the counter actually also changed. Everything about the system changes when you’re in a real live drill and it’s like the military with live rounds. It’s like sport when the game matters. It’s like boxing and you don’t know what it’s like actually getting it. It’s like gambling with your own money. You change the way you act when you have that skin in the game. I think everyone’s experience in some of their learning that there’s no consequence.
Gerrit Keferstein: There’s a wonderful differentiation between exposure and experience where exposure is you know stuff. You might know about gambling, you gambled all your life with other people’s money, you know investment, you know how investments work, you have invested other people’s money. You know about boxing, right? You know about the technicalities of boxing. You watched boxing all your life. Actually, have you been in a fight?
Joe Dolcetti: You get hit in the face you’re dead tired.
Gerrit Keferstein: That’s experience.
Joe Dolcetti: Well, it’s funny, I talked about this difference in learning, very similar, is that it was when I learned with driving and what I call the difference between, like you said, exposure and experience. I discovered that as understanding and realization. So, the best example I always have and I remember this is at a very young age because my dad would always teach me about driving and I joked with him as a young kid and I understood everything about driving because I watched and I watched the key and the way he manages the wheel and then about 12 or 13 he started to teach me how to drive. And I’ll never forget the day he said “All right, now you drive.” We used to drive up in northern Canada, we could drive anywhere. We would go on the country roads, wake up in the morning. He put me behind the wheel and now I was actually controlling that car. That was the point. All the understanding changed the moment I held and I had to accelerate it and even grab the wheel. If we went up the road, he would let me control it. That was the most amazing is that at some point at the end he said “If we go off the road, we go off the road but the only way he’s going to going to learn, he’s going to realize this.
Gerrit Keferstein: Got to put skin in the game.
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah. And I remember even as a kid later on in university with sports, I remember there was a difference between when we’re helping somebody understand something and when we realized that. You and I were the first two guys to talk about. It’s a massive area of change that I think good coaches and good trainers and good educators understand but it’s an important one that I still see a lot of gaps in. And we even talk about something like EXOGEN. You get a simple coaching situation where you’re saying “I want you to engage this muscle.”
Gerrit Keferstein: You were talking about this actually. Just what you said, there’s a difference between understanding and realizing. We talked about this aha moment yesterday when we talked about technical aspect of coaching.
Joe Dolcetti: That’s what you mean.
Gerrit Keferstein: For example, as a golf player you can tell somebody all day long to pronate or turn his wrist in but as soon as he feels the value of it, as soon as he feels the click, as soon as he gets the feel of the ball,how the ball flies and how it’s different when he turns his wrist in. That’s where the body is saves it – “Okay, Stuart I got this now.”
Joe Dolcetti: And it’s just like you said. A great example you mentioned, these expat financial companies, money investment. And this is a true story. I remember a guy showed up. As an expat here in Asia you get all these companies that come out here selling expat bonus packages because there are all these expats who get pretty good salaries and they’re looking to invest their money. And these guys come out here, they hire all these sales people, these financial consultants that go in with the expats, they dig to find your emails, they call you up “He, I’m from blah, blah, blah, from whatever financial. I’d like to talk about some investment.” At that time I thought “Good, I’ve got to do that.” And I remember the guy shows up and when he showed up, he got out of the taxis and he walks into the meeting with me. And in high-performance sport we deal with the reality of competition and I wasn’t trying to be rude to the guy. So, I sat down and I said “How long have you been here?” and he said “Two years” and he’s doing this. And I just asked him straight away, I said “You’ve been here for two years. Why are you driving a taxi?” I said “What kind of car do you drive?” He goes “I don’t.” And then I started asking where he lived and I actually said to him “You know what, I got to be honest. This session is over. I’m going to be real honest with you. All I know is if I’m giving my money to somebody, I want that guy to be financially successful. No disrespect but you don’t drive a nice car, you don’t have a big house.” And I asked him “Do you invest in these products?” and he said “No, I haven’t.” And I stopped and I said “Why would I give you my money?”
Gerrit Keferstein: So, you put my money into that but you don’t put your own money into that?
Joe Dolcetti: And not only that, he was talking about something that he didn’t even understand. The guy wasn’t rich. Now, tell you what, if I’m going to give my money to somebody, he’s going to be good with that.
Gerrit Keferstein: So, what does that mean for coaching?
Joe Dolcetti: Okay. So, perfect example, when I walk in the door, you walk in the door and you start talking to me. You’re going to understand everything I say but a really good coach or person also realize as soon as they start to move, they understand you. There’s a believability factor in the physical game and that’s why people that have done it have that believability factor because they know what it’s like. Now, I don’t care if that guy was not poor and he said “You know what, dude, I got to tell you honestly, I just lost 7 million dollars in a big deal” and you realize he had the money and he lost it but when I explored a little bit of this guy’s background, he doesn’t invest in these investment vehicles himself. He’s living check to check. He’s a typical example. He’s got a job telling other people how they should spend their money and he has never even realized taking his own advice doing these things and I thought “It just doesn’t make sense I give that guy my money.” He might be smart, you could even argue the case but my philosophy was “I’m under scrutiny every time a coach walks in and when a coach comes in and puts me in front of somebody, the person is saying “At least Joe looks like an athlete. Maybe he just looks that way but he’s got the right …”
Gerrit Keferstein: Man, you do look like an athlete. We were talking about this yesterday like “May, Joe is jacked. What does he do?” What do you do, I’d like to know.
Joe Dolcetti: But going back to that, that credibility falls apart if you call me coming down and say “All right, Joe’s going to teach you dynamic warm-up,” so I say “Yeah, he looks like he’s fit. He looks like he’s got the body shape of an athlete.” And then I get in front of you and then I get in front of you and realize I’m stiff, I can’t move and you do deep lunges but you know, I’m not even doing it right. “Why are you there?” Because I think the only way I have credibility is because I’ve done everything I teach. I don’t teach anything I haven’t done and that’s why even when I’m in new programs, one thing I’ve gained a lot of their trust is because I like them, I love sport, so I train with them. I do it all with them. Not only does that help me win credibility but I also understand the program. I’m like “Dude, yeah, even I’m trying to do it.” Those last three weeks at the camp had really affected me. So, I realized …
Gerrit Keferstein: You’ve got to feel it.
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah, you’ve got to feel it. And so, this is that game and I think the difficult part for people in feeling is when you have skin in the game, it hurts.
Gerrit Keferstein: It’s painful.
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah, it is painful and not everybody is willing to accept that.
Gerrit Keferstein: It’s very uncomfortable and many people are not really comfortable being uncomfortable but that’s uncomfortable is about. It’s about not being comfortable. It’s about learning. It’s about putting yourself out there with not knowing and find a way.
Joe Dolcetti: And being fair too, there are some very good teachers who teach the fundamentals and they don’t have skin in the game but as long as there are the facilities in place to then take that fundamental and put it into a broader context or chaos context…
Gerrit Keferstein: Yeah put him in a situation where he has skin in the game, where he has to learn.
Joe Dolcetti: And I think even going back to school and teachers, I remember I had really good teachers. They weren’t people that had skin in the game anymore but there was a difference between a teacher who had lived their life and now came back to teach then a teacher who finished university, went straight into teacher’s college, learned about biology but had never been a biologist. And I just remember the way they talked because they would say “Let me give you an example” and they would start talking about their time in Africa on this project and you’re making connections. The other teachers are giving you an example from the textbook and they’re helping you understand it but I just remember that there’s a massive gap here.
Gerrit Keferstein: And in university in Germany I had an anatomy professor from Madison and this guy at that time he probably just hit 70 years old. He was the head of the Paleopathological Society of Europe. So, for those that don’t know what that is, he gets called up whenever they find a mummy. They want to know what happened, where does this come from. So, this guy, he started almost 18 or 19 years old. He started hiding horse heads in the yard of his parents and to see the different stages of decomposition. Man, he had skin in the game and he knew everything. So, he would pull out a head, a human head and he would tell us everything about that person, like he would know everything about the culture that person lived in and it was just amazing to listen. Just like you said, there are people who would just go on and on and on and on. You know that they felt what it’s like. And that’s the sort of thing I experience when I listen to you because we met in Holland, right? We were at the workshop that was hosted by Henk Kreijenhof. That was really a topnotch workshop where only a few select group of people were there, maybe 50-60 at most, maybe 40, and you were talking about Life-Variable Resistance Training. And I was skeptical at first but the moment you started talking, I knew this is a special thing, you had the skin in the game, because you’re not there to sell a product. You’re there to tell your story and your experience or your challenges you had. You worked with a strength coach, and I would love to hear your story a little bit more, you worked with a strength coach, you worked as the guy performing really in the trenches and you’ve seen the challenges on a day-to-day basis be it rehab, be it strength conditioning, connecting strength conditioning through sports and really seeing that and you found solutions through that and it was really inspiring to just see you talk about the solutions you found. Tell us a little bit about your history as a strength coach growing up in the trenches in the skin in the game and that part.
Joe Dolcetti: And it’s funny, we did the Level 1 LVRT training with you the other day and you also did that module on the history of resistance training. I’ve never seen that module taught. I put them together myself and one thing I realized is I had had the luck or the fortune of actually going through the introduction of resistance training to sport in the modern era because when I started, I got really interested in this but I was the only guy in the whole city that was interested in this. There was a lot of people bodybuilding, a lot of people weight training but they weren’t doing it for sport and I remember the first job I had in strength training was I was just starting now my undergraduate course in physical education and I went to the gym because I had torn my knee and wanted to play football and I just knew these guys in the states were doing this. So, I was in the gym learning but I didn’t go to the gym only. I went to the library. I just had this fascination with training. And the head coach for the University wrestling program was also a national coach and a former Commonwealth Games athlete, etc. He’s an exceptional guy, Francis Clayton. He always knew me in the gym as a guy who knew how to do a lot of these lifts. So, he came up to me and said “Can you work with our wrestling team at the university?” And many of these guys were national team members. In Canada, my university actually used to be a national training center. So, they didn’t have anybody they could even go to. The national program didn’t have people doing this. This was early years stuff, early to mid-‘80s. And so, the next thing I know, there I am, 19 years old coaching Commonwealth Games athletes in power cleans and squats and bench press, drafting their program and I became part of the coaching staff. I would even go down and the first thing I wanted to do right from the get go was “How does this relate to wrestling?” So, I would go to wrestle with these guys too and I would think a lot about the movements I was teaching them, not just from that sort of standard BS line that “This will make you stronger.” And I remember because I was reading articles on how they were using power cleans for hip extension and hip extension is the foundation for almost every throw. Then I was also realizing like we needed to reconnect the lift to the movement right from the very beginning but what I was most interested in is I would look around the weight room and I would just see all this equipment that it was so hard to make that equipment match wrestling. So, the only thing we really had was that bar. It was the freest piece we had. So, from the very beginning I started to realize we’re really stuck with a lot of equipment from somewhere that didn’t seem to have been made for our sports. And as I went through this account and looked at the historical record, they were stuff being made for bodybuilding and fitness and all that and the gym coaches were just taking it and trying to adapt it and at the end of the day we ended up with all this marginal resistance equipment that didn’t really fit the bill because, as we talked about this sporting environment, this chaos and all of this was highly mechanist, highly isolated, highly controlled and not very movement or individual specific.
Gerrit Keferstein: So, you had the chaos and unpredictability off the sporting environment on one side …
Joe Dolcetti: But the gym was a controlled environment.
Gerrit Keferstein: Then you had the gym, a very structured and the bar was straight and stuff.
Joe Dolcetti: To this day most of our protocols are still very controlled. So, talking about my history, one thing I realized when we went to put that course together was “Wow! If you’re going to be an expert in your area, you need to know the history of your area because you need to understand the limitations that you faced in your area so possibly you or someone like you in the field can be part of building the future.” And I always thought it was really important. Education, I knew, was the answer moving forward and that’s why I realized one of the modules I used to do – and this was in the ‘90s with some of my staff when I was there, had strength condition at the University of British Columbia and I ran and built the big high-performance training center there we called the Bird Coop.
Gerrit Keferstein: What was it called?
Joe Dolcetti: The Bird Coop.
Gerrit Keferstein: The bird coop.
Joe Dolcetti: Well, that was a cool name we came out with. I’ll tell you more about that but I was doing the education with my staff and one module we had was they had to take every piece of equipment in the training center and adapt it for a sport. So, you’d have to pick a bench press and turn it into a kayak. How do you train a kayaker on that machine? Then the idea was I had recognized this is the equivalent we got. Most of it is very limited but when you start working with athletes they get very … everything’s, again, it’s circular, it’s multidimensional, some of it’s cyclic and acyclic but cyclic motions change dramatically under fatigue. So, your cycle changes a lot in a fatigue situation. The cycle at the beginning of the run is very different from the cycle at the end of the run and athlete’s dealing with a lot more. And so, I said “I want them to look at their tools and realize how limited our tool box is so that they don’t just stuff leg press, curls, shoulder press down every athlete that came in.” And it was really interesting to see how people were thinking about adapting this. And I didn’t realized back then, that was 25 years ago, that I was already moving towards this result of where we are. Because I had seen the limitation early, I had realized that many people didn’t understand the historical development of our field and we were stuck with things. If you give a doctor a scalpel and you say “That’s how you get your skin,” for the rest of the time that’s all that’s going to happen but what happens when laser comes through?
Gerrit Keferstein: Or you realize you don’t even have to go through.
Joe Dolcetti: You don’t even have to cut the skin.
Gerrit Keferstein: Exactly.
Joe Dolcetti: And you need somebody to think that.
Gerrit Keferstein: So, we’re talking about two different ways of thinking about sport preparations. There is one way to look at it and say “Let’s start really with the game. Let’s start with winning or losing. That’s what it’s about. Let’s break it down from there. Start with the game. Break it down from there.” And the other way to look at it, and that’s the tradition of maybe the last 50-60 years, let’s say sports science became really big in the ‘60s, ‘70s where we look at “So, what have we got?” from a scientific point of view and then see how close we can get to the game. We can call it car park science like when you lose your keys in the car park at night, where do you look? You look where you lost them or you look where there’s light, right? Nobody would look where there’s light. You need to look where you lost them even though there’s no light. And when translated from scientific to the sports point of view, my, and I think that we’re really on the same page there, is let’s start with the game, start with winning and losing and see what we can make use of and not just look at what do we know about sports science and see how close we can get to the game. No, no, no, we’re coaches. We want to be with the athletes and help them win.
Joe Dolcetti: And what’s really interesting about that is, and listening to you here, we’re touching on so many things that I’m looking back and thinking all these philosophies and ideas I started to develop at a very young age and another one you just said was, and I remember this and it was part what my mentor taught me this and it was back to UBC, I remember when I was first given the task, they were developing this massive new center out there and part of that was going to be a fitness center and, again, what was amazing was she had given me the opportunity to have skin in the game and develop what was to become the premier sport recreation facility in North America and I think we were voted world Number One Varsity Rec Center in North America and the world. It was so incredible. And I remember when she called me and said “These are the plans.” The building wasn’t even built yet. The property was set aside, there was budget and the year, this and that. She said “This is going to be a 10,000-square-foot facility. It has to be cutting edge to do all this. It’s your project.” And I was like 25 years old, first year of my Master’s, never built anything like that but she took it over because I think she saw also as a good teacher mentor is, they have the ability. They just haven’t had the opportunity. And she probably wasn’t going to run me completely. So, I remember I went for a month and I sat and I literally walked to the building site, I would be walking there at night by myself and I was placing things around and I looked at the architectural plans that had been developed for the facility. They had plans, they had treadmills here. It was a beautifully designed fitness center. And as I put everything that they thought was going to be needed by the architects, no disrespect to architects, but they think of function, secondary oftentimes. They’re the architects. The facility that was on paper had been budgeted and planned was ridiculous. It just never was going to work for our needs. And so, I remember I came back into our office, I saw the budget she gave, I saw the plans, I came back to her and I said her – and I literally had been out there 2 o’clock with a flashlight walking around this space out at UBC thinking about what this place would look like, what was this going on to look like – national athletes, professional football players, overweight students, props, all in this room at the same time. So, I came back to her and I just said to her “First, I just got to tell you this. This is the plan and it’s going to change and this budget, it’s going to change. None of this is going to work.” And she just sat there listening to me and I said “So, this is what I suggest. Let’s start at the top. Let me design simply not this facility that you guys need. Let me design literally the best facility in the world. And I’ll put in the budget is whatever it is but let me take a look at one thing – what does this facility need to do?”
Gerrit Keferstein: What do we need?
Joe Dolcetti: Yes, what do we need? And that’s Einstein thing – “Don’t try to be successful. Try to be necessary.” I didn’t know that quote back then but it’s one of my favorite quotes now. And literally she turned and she said “Okay, go.” So, she turned me back loose not knowing what was going to come back. And I came back, it took me another month or two with that and I tripled or quadrupled the budget but I also knew there was a reality to it. We had changed the complete floor plan which means she was going to have to go back to all the architects, they had already started planning materials for windows and none of that was working. That incredible woman, she looked at the plan, I remember laying it out for her for two hours, and I think the only thing she realized was “He’s done the work.” Not only that, she saw that now I had skin in the game too. And then I was apologetic. I was expecting her to turn me down but I started telling her “No, I can cut a million off the budget” and she just said “Don’t change anything. I’m going to take this upstairs.” And that became the plan. She was incredible. She was the head of campus recreation at that time and she was my mentor, probably my most important mentor. And she took it upstairs and she fought all the battles at her level because she also understood this was going to be special. We developed it and it became unique but we started from the top. We started with what’s needed and that’s what you’re talking about. I think you have to see what’s the best. I would rather chip away from the best than start at the bottom and try and add towards it because my feeling is you end up with a better product. You’re going to have to compromise something but you have to find to take it off the top.
Gerrit Keferstein: And the danger of micromanaging stuff that has nothing to do with the actual outcome. It’s a fallacy that’s in medicine, right? We can say “Well, your blood values are better. Look, your hormonal levels are awesome.” – “But, doctor, I feel shitty.” – “No, no, but your blood values are good.” – “Same thing in high performance.” – “Well, I made you stronger.” – “Yeah but we lost that game.” – “No, but you’re stronger.” It doesn’t matter.
Joe Dolcetti: This is exactly what I face. I face with that stark reality where we’re all happy because before the competition there are pre-test scores, there’s screening we did, their strength was up to par, core stability is all, all that up and they come back and they haven’t changed their position in the the league at all. And somebody comes back, and I told you that story about that athlete, that football player came back after one day at camp. First day at the CFL Combine, he lights it up, beats everybody. Second day they actually get on the field and he starts running patterns and he comes yelling back to me “Dude, I need flow.” He didn’t say “I need more speed.” He didn’t say “I need to be quicker.” He said “I need flow,” which means … You know what he said? “I need chaos.” And when you put me in a chaos situation, my flat 40-meter time doesn’t mean anything. I mean, it does matter. Obviously, it matters but we knew, like you said, there was more. And then you have to start saying “Well, what degree can we …”
Gerrit Keferstein: It’s the foundation. It’s about the application. A couple of weeks ago I talked to a martial artist and we talked about this. It’s good if you know how to jab right. It’s good if you know how to land a hook. It’s good if you know how to land a straight but that’s not what makes you win a fight. What makes you win a fight is to know when to use which.
Joe Dolcetti: When to do it and when not to do it and patience and all those other things. And what’s really interesting is my boxing coach here in KL, a Russian guy, that’s who I was talking to the other night and that’s what he said. I was gone for two weeks because I had work and I came back but I’m still training. I never stop training. You want to know the answer to your question, I can’t stop moving. I’m a shark in a weird way. So, I went back and I trained. I trained on the bag. I was working on speed bag and I was working just shadow boxing I hadn’t had a person hitting me in two weeks. I came back that first night and man, I got hit a lot. I was waiting to throw everything I could throw at him because I was just constantly getting knocked back up my feet and it didn’t hurt, the punches weren’t bad but it just disrupted everything. And Alex said “That’s why we spar so much in this club.” 75% of our time is sparring with partners and either it’s, like I said, controlled sparring or it’ll be exchange …
Gerrit Keferstein: It doesn’t mean you have to go 100% or it’s getting the reactions right, perceiving.
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah, exactly. And I just thought, yeah, how quickly that chaos, adaptability of being able to counter or to block and then coming out with my combination was gone in two weeks. And I just realized there’s a real method to good madness. And this coach understood that and that’s why he is successful, I think, as a coach and why so many people stay with him is they’re responding constantly. You’re not going down there spending the last 10-15 minutes of practice … And this is another interesting thing in sports and it used to be that model. We would train technical aspects all week long. And what did everybody want to do? They wanted to play game. That’s way the concept of the short-sighted game has become a really interesting phenomenon because it’s a technical term to basically play. And everybody gets in the foundation because American Football or Soccer, getting their short-sighted game time or that chaos situation in semi-controlled environment, it’s critical because I remember, like I said, American Football, we would have the last 10 minutes, and I remember back in Canada, Northern Ontario, gets darker. So, it’s really hard to have a game at the end of practice and sometimes we wouldn’t get it. And the only time you’d play a game was on Saturday when you were actually in a game. And you’re making mistakes there that you should’ve made in practice. And I remember I used to think, even back then I was like “Gosh, we spend a lot of time running drills.” And there were a lot of drills but the exposure of the game situation is so different when you’re not running back to the coach every 2 minutes, you have to figure it out on field yourself. And ultimately, it’s the age old question of what’s the balance between learning and then being released?
Gerrit Keferstein: Yeah. I mean, talking about sport preparation, obviously, you can’t play just the sport. When you play just the sport, when you imagine like a chain link, when you play just the sport, it’s always going to be that same link of chains, it’s going to break. For some it’s going to be some biomechanical orthopedic issues. For some it’s going to be the energy systems. For some it’s going to be the technical limitations but they’re also going to be limited by the same thing. So, you have to do some things that are not the sport, right?
Joe Dolcetti: You have to isolate that.
Gerrit Keferstein: Yeah, you have to isolate the weak link, right? So, that’s how this whole strength conditioning thing developed to isolate, to bring up that weak link again and that’s where strength training comes in very valuable. I mean, especially for beginner athletes or intermediate athletes, when they bring their strength levels up, they’re going to be better on the field but is that true for elite athletes who are having rally good strength?
Joe Dolcetti: I remember an elite athlete I pulled out of the gym and it’s really interesting, we started picking apart and moving things and as I was explaining that course, and I think I mentioned we were in Holland, one thing I realize too is, as I mentioned before and I think we talked about this, you have a limited amount of resource and we have a plate. I always the plate scenario because it’s simple. When you see your plate’s full at the buffet, as hungry as you are, you have two options. You either stop loading that plate or you get a second plate but something’s falling off. And I realized it in light with training and education is every time you put something on that plate, for most people you’re so full, you push something off. And we have to be careful of what we’re pushing off because the thing being pushed off might be the thing you need. And we talked about that in sports and athletes and natural athletes. We shovel a lot of isolated training down thinking that’s the solution because it was for one person over there or here but for that person it might not work and you have to be really weary, you just have to be cautious. And this is what I was saying to my students or team or staff “When you’re teaching them something, are they losing something?” If you’re not asking that questions, you might be making a mistake. And it’s just like saying “Already, is that 150-kilo squat? Is 200-kilo squat the answer?” And you got to think “Really? Is it?” – “Yeah but he’ll be more powerful. You see the research said his reinforced development will be higher and exaggerated.”
Gerrit Keferstein: That brings it back to like what’s your outcome. Is your outcome the power or is your outcome win or loss on Saturday or the playoffs? What counts?
Joe Dolcetti: That 50-kilo difference makes a tremendous difference whereas in sports it’s nothing to do with it but the strength and conditioning field and the fitness field is definitely guilty of force feeding our knowledge to people, to situations, let’s say, that it doesn’t always provide the outcome that we thought it would. And it’s because we never questioned it as a tool. Like you said, we start with the solution before we understood the problem. Medical – you walk, “I’ve got a headache.” – “Take two pills and call me in the morning” but do we really explore why that person has a headache.
Gerrit Keferstein: That’s the real problem.
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah really because he heard his wife was yelling for the last two hours at home. Maybe you need to go and actually just find nice cool place to chill for three hours, dark environment in a room where you don’t have to perform anymore.
Gerrit Keferstein: And sticking with the game, starting with the game, it’s easy with some physical aspects. For example, you mentioned small set of games, right? Small set of games are so valuable because you can trend their energy systems, you can isolate certain types of energy systems while still playing the game. So, how do you deal with the strength? That’s why I found what you presented in Holland is so interesting. This is the solution to an age old problem. How do you isolate the factor strength while still playing the game? Not just strength, I mean, just talking about power, talking about speed of movement. How do you isolate that while still playing the game. What’s the small set of game equivalent for power.
Joe Dolcetti: We’re having a very interesting sort of philosophical discussion on a lot of these things but bringing now to a very real practical play example. The small set of game situation is something we’re working with with many programs right now. Like I mentioned, one of the top AFL teams in Australia, we just had discussion with yesterday and we’re looking at doing research with, again, another top university there, bringing it in into the small sided game situation and looking at its effect in terms of the energetics of movement, specific endurance of that sport which has an incredible endurance demand and being able to use this as a tool to work on that and be able to measure that in small sided game. Football in Argentina, basketball in NBA – these are programs that we’re seeing a lot of sports, we think that tool has that ability to apply to that situation in a way that’s relevant to the movement. And we’re literally just starting the research to understand if that is the case. I mean, we know anecdotally what we think will happen already. You add that resistance in their, very, very specific movement training manner but we need to be able to capture that but what’s most interesting with working with these variables and these sports scientists, literally some of the best clubs of people in the world, they’re not interested in saying “Well, if we put them on a treadmill and we train them on small sided game, then we put them on a treadmill, again, we will see a change in endurance?”
Gerrit Keferstein: It doesn’t matter.
Joe Dolcetti: And that’s great because that’s a mechanistic view of separating the problem but what they’re looking into is “Let’s get GPS monitoring and look at the time and speed, time and endurance and positional play. Let’s look at real gameplay.
Gerrit Keferstein: What I’m saying is it matters up to a certain level but at the elite level it really doesn’t matter if you’re + or -5 milliliters. It doesn’t really matter but, like you said, what matters is what’s on the field.
Joe Dolcetti: Well, I tell you something else that we’re starting to realize is our ability to measure change, one – and this is cutting edge – our ability to measure change and our understanding of the sensitivity of change are two areas that we’re just really beginning to understand. Here’s an example – and this is something we’re working with, as you know, we’ve got this research partnership with Queensland University and Technology and Sports Performance Research Institute in New Zealand. Dr. John Cronin was our head of research there. Well, now our head but he’s head of research there and he works directly with us.
Gerrit Keferstein: He’s a very well-known scientist.
Joe Dolcetti: He’s one of the top strength, speed and power guys and premium sports scientists in the world. And one thing him and I talk a lot about it is what we’re measuring, we don’t realize that the sensitivity for change in that chaos environment is smaller than we ever imagined. So, here’s an example. Let’s take a look at a vertical jump or we’re seeing things change in the lab with EXOGEN right now in some of the research and we’ve been published in four or five of the world’s top high-performance sports journals already. It’s really cool, the stuff they’re doing, but we’re seeing stuff that anecdotally in the sport, in the field, the athletes and coaches are seeing change, that’s changing game, like they’re coming back and winning but we’re having trouble quantifying that in the lab. And that’s why one thing I insisted in all the research we’re doing is I want subjective data. I want questionnaires on everything. It’s all sprint. So, we’re doing a lot of work with action and speed. I mean, that’s the first place to start because everybody wants to be faster. And so, what we’re doing is we’re quantifying speed changes and mechanical changes sprint performance over short distances, long distances and we’re seeing small bits of change in the lab. It’s not like somebody’s dropping their 40-meter time in 3 seconds with six weeks of EXOGEN but what we’re seeing is in the field like what I mentioned with UK Athletics, they’re seeing small technical changes in the skill level of the athlete that we probably couldn’t even measure in a lab but they just won the World Championships as a partial contributor. And so, one thing we’re fascinated by is from the research perspective we think large measurable significant change is important but in that chaos environment, stuff that we can’t even perceive is critical. And that’s a limitation we have with research right now. Like John will call me up and say “Yeah, the sprint study, it’s hard to really quantify this.” Then I always ask him “What did the subjective data say?” All the athletes have become faster.
Gerrit Keferstein: I’d rather have an athlete … on that level … I’d rather have an athlete tell me “Oh, that felt the way better” than having that study that shows me that and the athletes saying “Well, I didn’t feel the difference.”
Joe Dolcetti: And that’s what’s really interesting now is we’re getting into the nervous system and this small bit of change, what actually is relevant and important to a movement in a competitive environment or like in a tactical, when you’re starting to do work in the military, police, in a tactical environment when life and death is on the line. And we’re starting to realize even our ability to measure that change or what’s important, we have to get more finite, more intricate in that because somebody if turns around and says “I don’t know if your research is showing it but I’m telling you I’m faster and I just ran 10 minutes faster in my marathon.”
Gerrit Keferstein: Joe, I mean, you have so many high level coaches and athletes that show you that on a daily basis but let’s break it down a little bit. Let’s break it down for the listener who might not know the product. Just to imagine it, EXOGEN, it’s a full-body suit with very little resistance, light resistances, so it’s going from like 50 to 100 to 200-g resistances and you can just place it anywhere on the body, right?
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah. So, it’s a full-body suit. It’s a component suit which means you don’t have to actually get into all the suit. It’s not a space suit. It’s sports garment based and compression based. You’ve got your various arm pieces, you’ve got full-arm sleeve and upper arm and forearm sleeve, shorts, calf sleeves. And so, some sports will leave certain pieces. Some people in some sports use multiple pieces and what we’ve done is, and that’s where some of our patents are, and those were problems that took years to develop, not weeks or months, literally years to create that system where we can actually literally pop and move weights around not just anywhere in the body but in any position, on the front of thigh versus the back, the proximal thigh and the hip versus distal thigh and the knee. So, the next thing was the loads, the accessory which comes with the whole product and those loads range from a 50-gram load, 100-gram load, 200 and then 300.
Gerrit Keferstein: And what I found really interesting, and that’s one thing I only thought about when you told me yesterday, was, well, yeah you have those many different loads you can place everywhere on the body but you can’t just design straight loads. They have to be kind of disbalanced to create …
Joe Dolcetti: Disbalanced and balanced.
Gerrit Keferstein: Yeah, they have to be unbalanced to be balanced kind of. They are mostly that pear shaped or tear shape. It’s like a teardrop because then they will give you the trigger within movement, we’re going to talk about the details of that a little later, within movement, that’s how they give you the trigger to modify movement and optimize movement. If they were straight, they wouldn’t do that.
Joe Dolcetti: No, and we’ve tried it and those loads themselves took almost 7 years. And we experimented literally with dozens, if not hundreds of designs and shapes and we had made a mistake like a lot of people in designing technical products is at times during the design process, and this is a really interesting phenomena, at times during the design process, we got lost in trying to design a product. And every time that happened, what I realized we had moved away from the concept of the product which was that there was one motivation behind this. Everything you see in that product, it was designed with the body in mind. And I can point out … If you point to me that, I’ll tell you why. If you point to me that, I’ll tell you why. And the only thing on that product that has a design component is that green color. That’s the only thing that I can say we liked it, it was a nice place between the male and female, and everything for start and it was our branding color. And of course now we’re already bringing out multiple colors but to go back to that with the load, one of the challenges we faced, and this is without a doubt the most fascinating thing I experienced in Germany, we discovered that when we could put weight anywhere on the body, where the weight was is more important than how much weight. And I always go back to that example of a car tire. You go get a new set of tires, you go down to the shop, they do your wheel alignment. Those wheel alignments come with 5-gram load. That tire weighs 130 kilos, 140 kilos and they will put 5 grams on one wheel span on that rim based on the revolutions and the balance of movement…
Gerrit Keferstein: But actually they use 5-gram weights?
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah, yeah. When they lift your car and look at the inside of the rim and you’ll see a 5-gram weight here, a 5-gram weight here and that’s all it takes to perfect that movement and that scenario describes what EXOGEN. EXOGEN is that 5-gram weight and we’d say “All right, you’ve got basic tire grade but ask yourself how long is that car and then actually your chassis and your brake and your entire drive-train system going to last if that tire is out of balance. So, that’s why those loads became like everything on the product. We were fighting with the loads. So, we had all this internal battle and we were looking at shapes. Some people liked X and we knew they had to interlock and I could show you the design pages we went through and the cut-ups. We were cutting, we had to be able to find the materials to make foam pieces to make. And what I realized, at some point we were starting to argue about what shape – “You liked which shape, I liked which shape, she liked which shape” – Se started showing shapes to people see what they liked and then I realized “Wait a minute. Hold on. At every step of this phase we’d go into the books. Let’s go back to the books.” And I realize our loading is the muscles on the suit. The suit is the skin, the myofascial system, and that’s what the construction of the suit was based on. If you look at all the construction lines and the panels, the myofascial. That’s every single one of that and that’s the challenge because a garment isn’t based on fascial lines. It’s based on those materials. So, we had to marry that perfectly. We nailed that, I think. And customers feel that too. And now was the load. So, I said “Let’s go back to muscle.” And I literally went back and I opened up my anatomy text and I started going through muscle fiber pennation, pennation being fiber angle.
Gerrit Keferstein: Yeah, I know, the angle.
Joe Dolcetti: And I just started looking at it. So, I started looking thinking “What do our loads need to do?” and it sort of just occurred. Pennation, no matter what angle, you have you got basically a belly and insertion and origin and I realized “Forget these designs. The load needs to have a belly, I’m sure, and it needs to have an insertion and an origin point. I’m sure of it. So, what design offers that balance?” So, we went back to that I said “All right, let’s take a look. Well, that’s out, that’s out, that’s out, that’s out.” And we were left with this thing and I realized it’s actually a muscle belly shape. And so, we started to experiment with that and putting it on and we realized this is it and almost immediately when we cut those shapes out and looked at that from both a beautiful design perspective but a functional perspective, I knew we were on it. And now it also made sense and I said “Of course it should be muscle based. The whole thing is human based like we talk about happy organic.” Then we went into the field and started testing it and that’s when things got really interesting because almost then we realized while they really balance out, but more than that, Jesus, movements changing now. When that load, when that belly’s on the outside of my arm, my arm’s rotating out. And we were thinking like “Oh my God, it’s going to throw everything off.” My first thought was “We’re in trouble” until had two sports who tested, one was world-class badminton here in Malaysia. One of our coaches, he himself is a two-time Olympic gold medalist. He had coached seven national programs, two Olympic gold medal. One of the best doubles coaches in the world from Indonesia, a good friend of ours. I put this product on him and he immediately put those loads in a position jabbing, where jabbing in badminton doubles is a very quick net play, it’s all from the wrist and he said “Ah, this is where I want to load.” And I was thinking “We can’t walk on to just something completely new.” And then we worked with golf. I mentioned Rick, our South African golf pro here who runs one of the top golf training centers here and now is a golf pro here. We put it on him. He immediately started manipulating these loads to create a sweet spot and he literally looked at me and said “Dude, that’s the sweet spot.” And right then we knew “This is going to complicate everything but it’s absolutely the way to go.” And now we were left thinking “Jesus, it’s not about half a kilo or a kilo weight. Now it’s about tweaking movement.” And we just started throwing it on people and just getting feedback. Since that load design came out, it’s been almost four-five years of play with that. And it’s pretty cool now to be in a situation where I really understand that and teach other people and watch other people discover that. And what’s really cool is you teach a person there are six standard belly profiles. So, let’s talk about that belly from our education. You can put something proximally on the lip segment of your thighs …
Gerrit Keferstein: Just break it down but before that, you might look at this thing and think it’s a weight vest but what you just talked about makes me understand no, it’s not about being a weight vest, not remotely even about the extra weight but it’s about you being able to position the weight in different positions and the weight vest or the weight actually being a technical coach at that point, as we talked about a little earlier, and we can talk to our athletes as much as we want about maybe training their elbows or we talked about swimming yesterday, the recovery stroke, turning the arm in, you could talk to athletes and it goes through their brain, through the processing brain but it will never be this aha moment, this “Oh, I got it now.” And what this actually does is you put the weight on different spots, like you’ve just said with that coach, and you just feel, you feel your body reacting to it and getting into that right movement.
Joe Dolcetti: This is something interesting. Everybody learns different. Some people are tonal. Some people are visual. Some people are verbal. Some people are word based. Some people are logical but everybody, and Scotty said it so good, Scott Hebert is one of our strength coach in team Canada. He said when we were down there with EXOS in Phoenix and he said “Everybody has a nervous system. Everybody learns tactically. When you do a tactile change in movement, everybody understands that because they all have a nervous system.” So, I can hold you or touch your but the moment my hold or touch is gone, you’re left to try and remember that but what if I touched you and when I left my hand away from you, I left the stimulus which is that load in a position that as soon as you swing that arm whether you want to or not, that load is just got inertia, going to initialize …
Gerrit Keferstein: We can always have this tactical application as a coach in slow controlled environment. You can go to gym, I can take the swimmer and have him guide through that coverage.
Joe Dolcetti: With a cable pulley or …
Gerrit Keferstein: Or my hands as a coach or as golf pro standing behind and guiding.
Joe Dolcetti: Training and swimming alongside them in the pool, right?
Gerrit Keferstein: Or how about at that speed?
Joe Dolcetti: Well, not only that because think about that thing as now … This is really critical with EXOGEN as well and we’re learning it’s not just at that speed. You’re always going to remember and as you know very well, during a sport, the organism changes. All sport has an endurance component pretty much. I mean, even an Olympic lift has an endurance component, which is fascinating. I think the only sport that probably doesn’t have an endurance component are the jumps because the release point is there, you’re not getting tired at any point during the activity, maybe if your run-up’s too long but leave that to the side, a person who starts at 200-meter butterfly, their body’s bodies very different at the end of that 200-meter butterfly. And so, how do you apply the load. It’s not about saying “How are you during the general movement?” when the movement is perfect. How are you when the movement’s not perfect? How was your ability to get close to that system so that you’re efficient? And this is a phenomenal thing that I see happening with loading where you’re seeing people using endurance to help the body simply resist fatigue so they can maintain skill as long as possible because oftentimes you’re looking at redoing the conditioning center to focus on the perfect movement but in the game situation, you’re never there. And I go back to boxing again, the moment you start getting tired, the first thing that happens … there are two key things that happen to a combat sport athlete, let’s just say boxing. Number one thing, you stop moving your feet. And that means you become a target. The second thing you do is your defense drops. And so, it’s a skill and it is one thing to punch from here in perfect technique but when your arms have dropped and now you’re trying to go back to the perfect punch systems, they don’t work very well. And so, what if you’re loading not for the perfection of that punch, just loading to keep that arm back up? Do you think that’s going to have a big impact on performance? It will be the difference between that guy getting knocked out or not. And resisting fatigue in many activities is the critical component.
Gerrit Keferstein: So we already have three occasions where you say “Okay, there is one thing, it’s this technical coaching, right? And then in physical therapy there’s a concept, it’s called RNT. Reactive neuromuscular training where I push you into a mistake and you drive against me for the correct move.
Joe Dolcetti: And you see that balances movements where physical abilities for the person so they have to reset that.
Gerrit Keferstein: You can use weights, whatever you want. So, how do we do that in full speed? How to teach them? It’s not possible.
Joe Dolcetti: With an opponent.
Gerrit Keferstein: With and opponent, right, but it seems to me like this EXOGEN could have this application just that – you push the athlete into a mistake by using 50 to 200-gram loads and we have this reaction. This is amazing.
Joe Dolcetti: This is a beautiful situation We’re in that change. Let’s see what’s going to happen.
Gerrit Keferstein: We can apply those modular learning skills in a full-speed environment, right? The second thing you talked about is, yeah, we can use it to develop power obviously and you can have your punch overloaded and you can either use it as a post-activation potentiation thing where you can overload the punch and then take the weight off again.
Joe Dolcetti: That’s something you can use to develop power because what we’re using it for is we’re developing power in the muscles that create power through a rotation system. So, we’re not talking about power in arm and the hand and a dumbbell. We’re talking about ground reaction change …
Gerrit Keferstein: Motion, movement chaos.
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah, movement chaos. So, you can actually target that rotation in the hip and the shoulder that creates the end result of that arm making contact and that’s really unique too because the expression of power in most sports is very multi-multidimensional and it’s a punch, a throw, a tennis serve. I mean, once that body go through that ballistic motion of creating that rotational twitch, Tiger Wood’s golf swing, how do you train that? With traditional resistance training. And that’s why the key word we’re talking about indirectly is transference. And this is my philosophy of transference – Why are we trying to transfer? If we were better at this, we wouldn’t be needing to transfer because the way we trained was the sport. That we’re trying to transfer at all and the bigger the gap between the transference tool and the outcome in the competition, the less is the likely ability …
Gerrit Keferstein: Where we started this conversation was yeah you can’t always train for sports. So, if you only do your golf swing, you’re probably not going to improve. And let’s bring that back to the discussion of order and chaos. If you always stay within that golf swing, within that order of your known golf swing, you’re probably not going to improve. So, now a solution to that maybe where strength training came, let’s do something completely different. Let’s go strength training for the arms. We found out now that doesn’t work because in golf your arms are not the drivers. So, yeah, you have to do strength training for the hips. Let’s try to get some transference on it but what you’re actually saying is maybe we have this narrow line of our known golf swing and it’s not about going completely different, just step a foot slightly outside of what our body knows…
Joe Dolcetti: I love this example.
Gerrit Keferstein: … just slightly outside of it but just add some weight here and there. And I’m not talking about, and you say that all the time, let’s not talk about kilos, let’s talk about grams because if we talk about 50 grams at a speed of what’s the club speed of Tiger Woods or hand speed …
Joe Dolcetti: We talked about badminton. 500 kilometers an hour is the contact and the speed at which that shuttle cock leaves that racket.
Gerrit Keferstein: So, what’s 50 grams at that speed?
Joe Dolcetti: It’s important.
Gerrit Keferstein: That’s for sure. So, that’s completely a new way of … it’s not new, nothing’s new but it’s a different way of thinking about preparation training.
Joe Dolcetti: The correct word? It’s an evolution. It’s not noble because we’ve thought about weight before. We just never thought about the weight is so light. And I’ll give you an example of how important weight is. We were going to drop the 50-gram load from our repertoire of load weights and my feeling was still – and this was about three or four years ago – and I was thinking “You don’t want to manufacture something and have it sitting in inventory.” And once I thought it was too late until I just literally happened to be talking to one of our coaches. He’s a good friend of mine. So, Rod and I were talking and I mentioned to him about 50 grams and he said “Joe, I think that’s a mistake.” He said “That’s a critical load.” He said “That’s the load we can use to tweak movement but not affect the actual performance because it’s not so much that it’s throwing them out of their cycle.” And he said “I don’t think you should be getting rid of that at all.” And I went home thinking about “Wow, 50 grams is important.” Remember, he’s a sprint coach. So, he’s an athlete on moving at the fastest movement speed possible within that range.
Gerrit Keferstein: Should place 50 grams at the end of the chain, maybe at the hand or the ankles, at that speed that the guys are moving.
Joe Dolcetti: Well, the guys are moving. Then when you load it to 100 grams, and we had a Malaysian 4 x 1 team seeking championship, they’re qualified top-level international sprinters. They’re not Americans or Brits but they’re top level. They would do up 5 x 70-meter relay acceleration drill. They kept that small 100 grams and it would just come right back, walk back to us after 100 and goes “Oh my god, that’s so heavy” but it’s relevant heavy. He’s not saying that was heavy for 10 kilometers. That’s not a squat heavy but when I’m running, those three, five steps or thirty steps in that 70 meters at super high speed, 100 grams is a lot. And all these little experiences, it just blows my mind. Here’s another example. Nobody, almost I’d say 50% of the athletes are trained with the product during their movement, specific training, they’re using less than a kilo, self chosen, not because I’m telling them to. When I asked “What did you use?” – “I did 10K, I had 400 grams on each leg. Wow! my heart rate was up almost like 10% more than usual. I can really feel that.” And I’m thinking 400 grams. And then there are people that say “Well, why don’t you just wear a heavy shoe?” That’s the question of a person whose mind is set on weight, not placement of weight.
Gerrit Keferstein: Exact. We’re talking about the movement, the motor learning that happens. That’s why it’s not weightlessness.
Joe Dolcetti: And this is more of the just systemic loading. Another example is cycling. There’s a massive amount of debate and discussion and lots of information out there about what happens when you add weight to a cyclist. Ultimately, there’s two schools of thoughts and lots of grey area in between. People say “Well, it doesn’t matter. If you put the weight on the body, you put the weight or the bike, you’re adding weight to the bike and that’ll make him work harder to some degree. So, what you can do is you make the bike heavier.” So, essentially you can take a cyclist and say “Well, train on a heavy bike and then compete on a lighter bike” but it doesn’t work that way. So, we’ve tested that and we’ve seen it. We get triathletes training of the bike and they loaded the calf and the hamstring and the hip and the glut and they’ll come back and say “Wow! I can really feel those muscles working.” So, it’s not just a systemic load. There is something more happening.
Gerrit Keferstein: Do they sometimes load asymmetrically?
Joe Dolcetti: We have that too. People talk about “Because you got your power meters, now I’ll tell you what is your left and right balance.” And that’s the right question here is “What’s the problem?” So, you got a guy with a left or right leg imbalance. You can go into a squat room and get him to the put one foot on the rubber board, one foot on the ground and you can train and work on it there but ultimately he’s going to get on that bike and go back to a problem. So, we’ve had people load one leg so that there’s a consciousness and a heaviness and it’s changed and they said “Yeah, I can see how my power meter are more aware. I’m not using that leg as much.” And that leg there is now not a weight we were using for mass. It’s for proprioception. And this is what we’ve been talking about. The suit gives you so much more variability for the use of micro-loading for so many different tools. Like I mentioned, you can load for proprioception. You can load for movement change. You can load for pre-resistance. Add weight to the system and you get an outcome – speed, power, endurance – but you have a choice. That’s why I said where you put loads is more important than how much you put load when it comes to movement torques on the body. And we’re so wired and we consider it in terms of our traditional strength training.
Gerrit Keferstein: Yeah and you talk about protocols but they’re more like principles as far as I understand it because there’s no right or wrong answer too. If you have an elite swimmer or an elite cyclist, it’s about trial and error really, try this placement or, like you said, the athletes can self select, try this placement. Let’s look at the times, look at the outcomes, look at how you feel. One story I found so amazing, actually that video of that Moto GP rider, like a 5-kolo suit, he wears a suit every day, which is 5 kilo. How much you put on there?
Joe Dolcetti: So, that was incredible. That’s the thing that it has been this discovery journey. I get calls from people all the time saying “This suit, I read about the suit. Do you think this could help you?” People are making the connections and I remember getting the call from the CEO of Sepang Circuit and we had a real top-10 rider here and they said … They love suits in motor sports, right? And so, he said “Do you think it will work?” and I said “Honestly, I have no idea. Let’s try it.” So, I went out there to the track and I looked at the set of the sport, looked at the arm endurance needed, we put 300 grams on each arm, 300 grams, 100 plus of coke can on each arm. We put in very specifically to accentuate, to put pressure like the loading was put in a way that it was pushing that down because he wants to keep that fine control.
Gerrit Keferstein: So, it’s the pushing and internal rotation and down.
Joe Dolcetti: I wanted to basically disrupt where he felt a nice neutral position.
Gerrit Keferstein: Did you place it for him or did he self select?
Joe Dolcetti: No, I knew what we could sort of do but probably more than the load placement it was the position there. And then he goes out, he does that like this 10-minute super motor rounds, so 10 minutes at 100 to 160 kilometers an hour on this tall slim sliding bike. He gets up back there and I come back and I literally thought … and I remember the 5 kilos. So, as he’s getting ready to go on the bike, I’m watching him, we’ve now loaded him on, he’s got his sweat undergarment, we put the sleeves on top of that and he picks up his 5-kilo leathers, he puts them on and I ask him, I said “How much is that weight?” He goes “5 kg, 5.5” and I just remember thinking “We’re wasting our time. We just added 600 grams to that system. It won’t mean anything.” And then he gets off that bike in that first 10 minutes, and I come over and I asked “Yeah, how was it?” and he just looks at me and he goes “Oh my god, so heavy.” And as soon as he said that, I knew something important was happening. Notice my words. I didn’t know what was happening but I knew enough about the sport to know if I’m creating fatigue, I’m effecting something at a very high level. The next question is something’s important happened but what. And then I asked him “How hard more were you working on the bike?” and he goes … I said like “10%? 20?” and he goes “I think 40%.” So, right off the bat we realized this guy going to an RP, 40% change for a guy who’s a seasoned world-class rider.
Gerrit Keferstein: And he’s not amateur, right?
Joe Dolcetti: No. And not only that, this guy’s an endurance beast. This guy can run Iron Man probably 9 hours plus. I think he did do it. He’s an exceptional athlete in every respect and he’s a fitness freak and very body weight strong. And I just thought “Okay, something cool is happening.” And we took that weight off, that 300 grams and I just thought “Well, typical trial for me to help people understand loading and unloading is let’s load them up, feel their movement, let’s unload and get that potentiation effect.” A little bit of PAP. So, we did that. He gets his break, 5-10 minutes wash-out period. Then he goes in, jumps on the bike to do another 10-minute set, no weight. We’re watching his lap times and we just see first lap, second lap, third lap, fourth lap. Fifth or sixth lap and he nailed his fastest, personal best and his body takes its time as he’s riding the motorcar, back of the mind, you know he’s getting excited because you can see his time’s going down and he nails his fastest lap record ever in Supermoto on the track and he comes back and I say “How was that?” He just goes “Oh my god.” He said “My arms are so light, so free, they feel like 1 gram.” Now, everybody listening will say “Oh, I get it. Before there was weight. Now, there’s no weight.” Yeah but you demystifying it but you’re undervaluing it. Exactly what we’re learning is how important …
Gerrit Keferstein: You understood it but you didn’t realize.
Joe Dolcetti: And now we realize we have this tool that can have … Well, actually, what was aha? It was that light and real movement is incredibly important and we started training with him, we started using it in his gym work and the work on the bike and we would use that at sessions to build your specific endurance as well as that specific strength because, man, your neck and your shoulders, when you get tense, the tension that you get, if that’s not relaxed, steering is not good. steering is not good if you’re on the wrong line. You’re on the wrong line, microseconds are gone. Microseconds are gone, you’re slow. And that’s crazy in something like motor sport. So, I immediately knew after session we can effect that. Now, whether or not the ride’s better or not, we had a tool to make it more physically fit and prepared for racing.
Gerrit Keferstein: I mean, he had that record but if it was because of the EXOGEN or it was just coincidence, we don’t know but he felt this speed for the first time.
Joe Dolcetti: Okay, I’ll give you an interesting thing that we’re seeing anecdotally. We’re seeing these coincidental top performances with literally every athlete using the product. And now I’ve learned and I’ve been around the field long enough that you think “This isn’t an accident.” Again, weight training we know. It’d be very different if you and I were having a conversation about EXOGEN, the new magnetic polarity suit. And we don’t understand magnetic polarity effect on the body very well. We’re in infancy in that area. Then you don’t know what you’re looking at but it is just weight. There’s a physical aspect here that science understands very well and there’s a neurological component that we also understand very well. I was working with the boxer in New Zealand, she’s awesome, and her coach. She’s Alexis Pritchett, getting ready right now for the Commonwealth Games. Her and her coach Cam work around New Zealand. They’ve got their own training center there, very open minded, very talented. And, again, this is a case study and that’s the danger of case studies and why we’re doing a lot of work. So, she found out about the suit because of the program there with New Zealand, was very interested and we got her some kit and she started training. And I love the fact that, first off, Cam, her coach is obviously open minded and intelligent because that sport, combat sport is very traditional but they adopted, the put it in and they said “All right, let’s get through the inconvenience of having to put it on and try it” and within a very short while, they started realizing like “Well, things are changing.” And I remember John Cronin ask me like “Do they have data?” and unfortunately it was all anecdotal stuff. One of the first things they noticed was pad work. So, Cam and Alexis obviously know each other very well. And not only that, they’re a couple, they’re married. So, they have a very intimate understanding. Cam said within a very short period he had to adjust his stance for his pad work because all her movements were becoming longer and that was an immediate change. EXOGEN gets introduced, something was going on. One of her sparring partners told her a mother or two later, and this is the men’s light heavyweight boxer from New Zealand, he was a sparring partner and he told her “I could feel your punch. Some of your punches are stinging me now. what’s going on?” She went to a training camp in the U.S. and it was fantastic. Again, we can’t prove it but she had a sparring match with a woman there. I think they had a competition. They were at the USOC Olympic Training Center. She goes “Oh my god!” This she posted on Facebook. She goes “I just knocked out a girl for the very first time of my entire career.” And she goes “It’s scary.” She never had a knock-out. Now, I can’t say EXOGEN did that but I asked her afterwards, I said “What do you think happened?” and she said “Joe, I don’t know. All I can tell is that in that punch everything flowed.” So, you look at what changed. We know one thing that’s changed. And what’s really cool is they didn’t just try it once. They had, at that point, taken the product, put it in three to four times a week, all that boxing movement was EXOGEN loaded.
Gerrit Keferstein: Yeah if you look at that narrow gap again was where we started with the golf player, you have your regular golf swing and you can train just left and just right of that regular golf swing and it could be either direction. You couldn’t put weight on it to it down a bit which makes you stronger and more powerful in the long run and you also have that post-activation potentiation effect but also one interesting aspect we talked about yesterday is you can also make it faster because weight always carries inertia, right? You have to overcome the inertia initially but you also have to break down the inertia in the end.
Joe Dolcetti: You accelerate and decelerate in acyclic movements.
Gerrit Keferstein: Let’s look at the running example yesterday. So, look at a long distance runner who is under striding, his stride is too short. So, just putting a weight on the ankle in the right position can either shorten his stride because he has to overcome the inertia but putting it in the correct position slightly differently, the opposite, it can lengthen the stride because the aspect of braking that inertia is more in the front there. So, it’s a technical tool to teach you the movement you haven’t felt like this before and he’s like “Oh, that’s what a long stride fees like.”
Joe Dolcetti: Now, think about this. What does that mean? The question isn’t a question of stride. Why does an athlete change their stride and endurance? Because of efficiency. Somebody looks at them and realizes inefficient with that long stride or you’re inefficient with that short stride. Let’s try improving that because it’s going to be a more efficient process over time because everything about endurance is conservation of energy. You want to finish with as much energy as possible so that you slow down as late as possible. And that’s why we change technique and even in a short distance, and I go back to somewhere like UK Athletics, they bring EXOGEN and you talk about striding and, again, it’s important for your listeners to understand I’m not saying we caused all this change but these are real world examples, some of the best athletes in the business who were seeing things of exception. They know something really interesting is happening. What we’re trying to do right now, as is always the case, we’re trying to go with our team at AUT to start quantifying that and actually see “Well, let’s capture some of that.” Look at UK Athletics. They bring the product. Obviously, they’ve been developing for a long time but I remember when their 4 x 1 team, men’s and women’s team started working with the product. And we were really excited about getting a chance to work with them. They were top three, four in the world and they had a bunch of injuries. That’s where they really started but within four weeks, they’re obviously some of the best people in the world, one of the guys there, Dr. Michael Johnson is the head FCC for UK Athletics. These are top guys, smart guys, and conversations with them are really interesting and they figured out their own protocols to it. About a month after using it, one of their top athletes, I think she has sort of a slow run for a while and she came back and won the British Championships and even the commentators were saying “Well, she’s having incredible performances here.” Later, Mike was telling me and he said “Joe, EXOGEN did it.” He said “We can already see some positive changes in her stride length, in her performance at the National Championships.” Indirectly I picked up what he’s saying is “There’s change happening and those changes or technical and those technical changes make a difference.” And then they went away and it was about stride length. And then they went of course to the World Championships and for the first time in history UK Athletics win the World Championship. Now, I can’t turn around and say EXOGEN caused that at all but we do know as a tool it’s providing a very unique transfer and subtle, a lot of that additional training and tweaking that’s bridging that gap between … It’s really helping at that final step because the other thing we’re seeing is everybody we’re working with is right there and then all of a sudden they’re crossing a line to something new. And it’s giving them that … A lot of people say to us this is that 1%er. I mean, in the average person it can make a big difference but people are saying “This is that 1%er. This is that edge.”
Gerrit Keferstein: Yeah if you look at general physical preparation, that gymnastics or weight training certainly has its value and the way I look at it is the further you’re away from peaking or your competition, the more value is general physical preparation in terms of injury prevention, in terms of broadening your movement lexicon.
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah. And in the performance I would say you need a strong minimum. You need a strong minimum base all year long and if that varies much, you’re kind of in trouble.
Gerrit Keferstein: And especially also for max strength, like having a good maximum strength. It’s kind of like a tall roof where you can fit under in power and speed and such things, far away from the competition. And then special strength training where the Russians had a lot of thoughts about this and they developed special exercises for sports which we all know.
Joe Dolcetti: They led that.
Gerrit Keferstein: And there’s recent developments where France Bosch had some really interesting concepts of using special exercise to develop speed specifically in certain movement patterns but it’s still in a gym setting, it’s still far away from the sport and there’s a big gap in between where this just comes in where we can say “Hey, it’s just slightly out of our comfort zone and let’s be able to overload movement slightly, not in kilos but in grams.” And the other interesting aspect, what always fascinates me is, is it a tool that makes us as coaches talk more or less. I’m not interested in tools that make me as a coach talk more. Like I said yesterday, if I have a session where I talk for an hour, it’s a terrible session because when I talk for an hour, we didn’t move around and probably didn’t learn a lot but where the value comes in, I think, you have the athletes sprint and you see something that’s not on point and how do you coach them up to be better next time. And Nick Windham did great work in that field, in intrinsic versus extrinsic coaching.
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah he’s certainly becoming one of the world leaders in that area, in motor development as a coaching concept.
Gerrit Keferstein: Right. How do we improve movement without bypassing the head.
Joe Dolcetti: Nick would say, I think, and I don’t want to speak for him but I do know Nick and we’ve had some great engagement with him already and he would say “How do I reduce my coaching but improve my outcome?”
Gerrit Keferstein: Exactly. And there’s many valuable exercises that Nick would also show us and this is where he comes. He would put the weight on it in certain positions and look what changed. It doesn’t always change for the better but sometimes it does and then we learn something about that movement. That is sprint, just spread this as fast as you can, put weight in a certain position, sprint as fast as you can again. Oh, I like that piston movement of those knees. I love that.
Joe Dolcetti: Like that example he says “How did it feel?” And the athlete tells you the feedback. So what happens is the athlete ends up giving you the lesson that you thought you had to coach. So, he turns around and says “I could feel that leg coming up. I felt that piston motion” whereas at the beginning of the session you would’ve said “I want you to get your leg up. I want you to feel the piston motion” whereas none of that was relevant but now that he felt it… And it’s a self coaching tool and, again, one of the things we hear is it puts the ownership of learning back on the athlete. And it’s exciting and I think, like I said, it’s important for me to clarify that a lot of these examples I’ve given are unique and are interesting but they have to be understood in that context. We can’t turn around and say “that caused that” and when you’ve been in your field long enough, you can certainly see this isn’t an accident that all these people are smashing things through that they didn’t get to before. There’s something going on here. And I think that’s why some of the best programs in the world people are connecting in just now.
Gerrit Keferstein: And let’s be honest, if you find a weak link, how can strength improve? And right now this might be the weak link but if all of a sudden everybody did just that for training, people will stop improving. And then general strength comes back into the equation. General endurance and strength comes back into the equation, right?
Joe Dolcetti: And that’s an important point too is because everybody gets excited about the next thing and I literally remember the timing when Fit Ball came in. I was working in UBC when they first started showing up, one of the several people working with …
Gerrit Keferstein: Is it Swiss Ball?
Joe Dolcetti: Yes, Swiss Ball. There are so many things like Fit Ball, or whatever ball you want to call it, the big rubber ball.
Gerrit Keferstein: With air in the middle.
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah with air in the middle. And I remember being invited in 2000 to speak at Hong Kong Sports Institute. At that time I just arrived there. I think it was 2000-2001, and I was with this Australian guy who was speaking on the Fit Ball and I was in there talking about periodization with trainers and fitness trainers up there at Hong Kong. And I went to listen to this guy’s presentation, a really nice guy, but he was one of those people who jumped on the ball and literally was saying “Now, the ball was panacea” like every exercise you used to do, you now do with the ball because the ball provided an instability and chaos that’s important. And I’m thinking “No, that’s not how that works.” And I realized there’s a real danger to adopting something new and selling it as a panacea for the masses. And I’m very conscious not to say “This is it.” This is a tool and it has a place but it doesn’t mean you throw away all your other tools. And every time we get a new tool, we have to think “There are some things this will replace. There are other things that maybe we don’t need to do so much of but don’t throw away everything as you move forward.” And that’s a really critical point.
Gerrit Keferstein: The best method is the one you’re missing and in health the best vitamin or the best food is the one you’re missing. You can’t say this is a super food. If you’re missing that type of vitamin profile or nutrient profile, yeah, this is a super food for you and at that time. And if you keep eating that, whatever, wheat grass every day, you’re not missing that.
Joe Dolcetti: That’s the way people train. And this is something I talk about. When an athlete comes in to see me they’ve got a problem, almost invariably the problem centers around the stuff that they’re not doing enough of. And this is what I said, and I know this from a business perspective, running the company in the last couple of years and I know this from the organic of body development or sports, your strengths don’t move you forward. Developing your weaknesses move you forward but what happens to most people is when they try to move forward, they go back to what they know. That’s why I always hated when somebody says “I’m going back to basics” which means they’re going back to rely on their strengths thinking somehow doing all that over again in a new way maybe is going to propel them forward but it’s not. There’s something missing that you haven’t tapped on yet and it is usually something maybe you don’t want to do, you don’t like doing or you don’t yet know you should be doing. And that’s where it is really hard to analyze weakness for a lot of people. And I see people going back and forth trying to, like I said, move forward based on their strengths your strengths are holding you back. And you’re 100% right, it’s the missing element. Then we have to ask why is that element missing because sometimes you’re blocking it. You don’t want to do it like I know a lot of athletes in a sport love playing the sport but they just don’t want to put in the hard yards of endurance training and literally they’re tired after 60 minutes because endurance training his tough. So, they don’t run around, they just don’t want to do that. And I watched this in the martial arts and I think you get these guys, incredible, and look at M&A. M&A right now, we’ll see three-round or five-round of 5-minute fights. You look at people in the first two, three rounds. They’re used to knocking somebody all the time. Then they go the distance and I love that American speech: “They go into deep water”. We’re going to take them into deep water. And that’s sport analogy.
Gerrit Keferstein: Are you following UFC?
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah, I do. I love it. I think there’s a lot of interesting things. I might have my own amateur fights. I’m definitely going to get lots of matches as well but I like it. I’ve always wanted to. I like rugby, moving into coaching rugby. On a personal level, I’m working into combat sport but you watch these guys and you think “Jesus,” in the fourth round you’re looking at this guy who could knock you over in the first but he literally cannot knock you out in the fourth because, remember, the organism has changed and when your organism changes, all of that skill work is gone. And if you don’t have knock-out skill, not KO power, when you’re tired, you know what, friend, you’re dying. And you look at them and think “Why didn’t somebody sit with his coach and have him “You know what, for the last six months in your fight camp, your knock-out power was already there. Stop worrying about it. Get out there on the road and put in 50 kilometers a week running because that’s what you need” because that was the thing that’s missing that that guy knew and he waited you out, he weathered the storm of your power and you can’t do anything.
Gerrit Keferstein: You’re not talking about your Irish friend.
Joe Dolcetti: No, no, that’s useless. And Korea, as a country made this their model. Korea didn’t have the skill level to compete in sport on so many different levels. Football, they didn’t have skill for hockey, they didn’t have skill for … but what did they do? Look at in the year 2000 Korea came out of nowhere to win the Olympic silver medal in field hockey. How? They literally outran the entire field. And I remember this because we worked with Korean coach Kim, a legend coach, an Olympic silver medalist, world champion coach. He was training with us at Sports Center here. We had a big tournament in KL that year before the Olympics and they were here for the Azlan Shah. We were talking about this the other day. The Korean national team there. Malaysia was top 10 in the world at that time. They had a game against one, two or three in the world, that night, Friday night. Friday morning you know what the Korean team was? They were in the gym training, their normal training session, not like all these strength coaches out there were doing with light movement, all this crap. These guys came in, had a hard gym training session. I said “What are you guys doing? You’ve got a game tonight.” And he goes “So? This is not the Olympics for us.” We will go to play tonight but today we train. This is a training day for us. Tonight they will train. Now, you have to understand that in context. He didn’t just make that up that day. Those players had been developed to be mentally and physically tough to handle that. And so, I had to then weather the storm of the Malaysian Hockey Federation who found out Korea trained in the gym before getting … so Malaysia had to and I was like “Dude, our athletes will break if we try that.” We needed to start that with them when they were 15. And then have the nutrition support and all that so the body can handle that but that’s political issue too is what’s your agenda and working with state federations and club level and all the different coaches but hopefully, like all these different areas we’re talking about but it’s all about making the system better overall. And that’s where I think something like EXOGEN has value in that. It’s a tool we currently don’t have. I mean, I can say that now categorically. It is the most specific resistance tool probably on the planet but what we found is we’re rethinking use resistance for movement because it’s not just a weight tool. You can use it for movement change. You can use it for creating a chaos situation for individual change. You can use it for going out and burning weight.
Joe Dolcetti: Talk about something else and this is another very interesting area that’s really blowing up because we’re just in the market now in the last one, two years, we’re sort of select selling. And most of it’s with varied high-performance programs but a lot of our customers now were getting with things like the Iron Man event and have a partnership with. And one thing we hear from everybody is “I love it because I don’t have to go to the gym. I’m building my strength training into what I’m doing because I don’t have any more time.” And then you hear people saying like “You know, I don’t want to be told I’ve got to do EXOGEN training now. I run twice a week, I swim once a week and I cycle on Saturdays.” And I say “Great, let’s put EXOGEN in for the first half of those runs, half your cycle and on Saturday and for part of your swim.” He said “Well, I don’t have to add.” I said “No, let’s bring up the level of intensity of those sessions you’re currently doing.” And one of our triathletes who is also our Asia-Pacific champion for 44-45, when he last bought this product, he said “I didn’t have to change what I do. I just changed what I wear.” It’s a wonderful way of thinking about it. He said “But I don’t have to start going to the gym because I do want to go to the gym to get strong. I’m building it into where I need it. I need to build my endurance, 2 hours into a run.”
Gerrit Keferstein: How do the pro athletes, mostly in team sports, how do they use it? Do they cycle it in block by block or especially do they use it leading up to a competition or how do they apply it?
Joe Dolcetti: And again, what’s the need, number one. Now, most people is, because it’s resistance training, first and foremost, you’ve got to be consistent with it. If you pull it out once a week and play with it, you should probably just be on the shelf or give it to somebody who’s going to use it. You’re going to need consistency. So, we’re seeing for a lot of athletes they’re building in it and they’re putting it in somewhere between 20% to 30% to 40% of their training. The current training time is now becoming EXOGEN -loaded training time. An example with Malaysian National Hockey team we’re bringing in, very successfully, and they had good change already and performance change working with the product as well. And of course clarify. It’s a multitude of things they’re doing that they’re getting right but we bring it into the warm-up process. So, three times a week, 30 to 40 minutes of the beginning of every session is EXOGEN loaded.
Gerrit Keferstein: So, the first 30 minutes of each session. And then they change again?
Joe Dolcetti: No, they don’t have to change. That’s a nice thing about the product. Just pull out the weights. So, these are only capsules and it’s comfortable, it feels good. So, first 30-40 minutes go in and we do that dynamic warm-up, we do specific warm-up, we get into our movement-specific drills for the day which will involved some combination – speed, ability, coordination and stick work, all loaded. So, all of that is being trained very specific to the sport and then we say “All right, guys, that’s done. Strip down. Now we’re going to go into learning skills, very typical or whatever it might be.” Now, this is the interesting thing. We tell them to take off the weight. We want the rest of the session to be unloaded – “You’ve done your specific EXOGEN weight training.” We see the change in that in their performance variables but mostly in their on-field play very quickly that I would say 25, a quarter, maybe a third of the athletes choose to leave it on for the entire training session but what’s most important is the team kept key players, key fitness players, senior players, players that know the value and aren’t so lazy, they choose to keep it on. And I go up to them and talk to them and like “You take that off” and he goes “No, no, no, I like it. I like the power.” And you see they know what this thing’s doing. And so we don’t tell them not to, we realize because they’ll keep it a little bit on and tweak, like an extra 200 grams of the arms. They just want that little bit of extra power.
Gerrit Keferstein: Is there any experience already with the … It’s a very young product but is there experience already from coaches that feel “Well, there’s a point where we use it too much, where we get overuse injuries, we get trouble with the joints”?
Joe Dolcetti: We track them and because we’re close with a lot of persons we’re working with, we’re were really cautious of making people understand that we don’t just want to throw weight, we don’t want to make that statement saying “Actually it’s great. Use it all the time” because someone’s going to screw that up. And weight training at high speed for a long term can be injurious even more so than a heavy weight in a slow gym situation.
Gerrit Keferstein: You talked about this acute and chronic loads.
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah we’re very conscious of one program here like the first two weeks is play time and that’s where we said, following our models, 100 to 200 grams is the training load for the first couple of weeks. And then they say “Well, I don’t feel anymore.” I think then there’s an adaptation. Your systems tire at a higher level because there’s load in there that’s not affecting your movement. So, let’s add the next load and then we go up and that’s where we tell people “You don’t start with a kilo and go up to 2 kilos. You start with 400 grams a leg you go to 600 grams a leg after two to four weeks.” And that blows people’s mind because … You’re a big guy. What’s your body weight?
Gerrit Keferstein: I’m at 93.
Joe Dolcetti: 93 kilos. 192-194, I get EXOGEN on you, you put on your shorts, you say you’re going to be using it for American football. Put on your shorts and as soon as I put 400 grams on each leg and you stand in front of me … The product feels good. We know that. It’s designed well. It’s wrapped around your body. The first thing you’re going to say “I don’t feel it.” And then you go for a run and then you’re going to come back and say “I’m starting to feel” but now you have a full intense session for three times in a week and at the end of the week you’re just going to notice “I’m more tired than I was.”
Gerrit Keferstein: I mean, everybody who changed these shoes to a little heavier pair, he knows that that means.
Joe Dolcetti: So, what we look for is we tell people “During this first two to four weeks, your muscles aren’t adapting to the load and your cardio-respiratory system isn’t adapting to the load. First, your joints are and the neuromuscular proprioceptive control, that’s the first thing we’re concerned with. When we go to weight training in the gym, that’s not what we’re talking about. We start talking about strength, but for me, the first thing we’re looking at “When you go into a high speed rotational movement and you make a change to high speed rotational torque, where is that being felt?” It’s not the contraction of the muscle belly. It’s the joint that’s bearing that load and that can be an incredibly high potentially injurious load on soft tissue structures. So, we tell people we know that those structures need several weeks to even start to adapt. So, you shouldn’t feel the load. You’re not trying to build in immediately. Let your joints and your soft tissue adjust to that as well. Like I said, we’re starting to get to … literally just this week we found what the principles are. Now, we’re getting guidelines. First thing is guidelines. And what I think is really cool here, we also recognize when you stay on social media, we’re not going to develop our principles. We’re going to find incredible people buy this thing and, to be honest, the leader in cricket is this guy Stefan Jones, the fast ball coach for UK, former professional. This guy is building all the guidelines for cricket. I don’t even understand what he’s doing. And some of them are like “Oh, I wanted to be the one” and I’m like “Really?” You’re never going to be that one. You’re going to do it all. And I realized my value was kick starting the whole thing but there are better people than me in sports or sports medicine.
Gerrit Keferstein: Crowd sourcing, that’s the way to do it. There’s a great saying, it says “Teach people why. They’ll figure out the how.”
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah. And when I look at Stefan right now, he has done protocols for fast bowling and what’s really interesting though is it’s already broken down. Fast bowlers are either knee dominant or hip dominant. I didn’t know that. And I realized my learning is just going through the roof. Again, I started out being this teacher but 50% of my time I’m teaching. The other time I’m listening. And when I’m listening to someone like him figure it, and he has nailed those protocols down, he could draft that into that content and put it out there. And it’s fascinating. And it’s like top sports teams. You think you’re cutting edge. They’re smart enough to know they need to be looking but their mechanism for operation is very slow. It’s very conventional. So, they don’t adopt things early. I’ll give you a simple example. It goes something like this. If I have a season next year, I’m not using anything that I haven’t tested out probably one or two seasons before. That means we’ll probably at minimum go through a 12-24-month vetting process but like a personal trainer or a coach, I want a more practical level where I get paid for my session, they’ll make a decision on the spot. I like it, it works, I’m going to try it tomorrow on that guy. If he likes it, it works, we’re working on it. Yeah, it’s interesting. We were talking about this technical part and you said what happens in technical sports where fine-tuned movement skill, you don’t want to miss that. You could affect it.
Gerrit Keferstein: Yeah, like I said, I always worked in pro basketball and we always had this issue of like where do we put the strength training. Do we put it after the basketball practice or put it before? I’m always a friend of intertwining things as much as possible. I’d love to have them do some squats and do some jump shots but that wasn’t possible because of infrastructure. So, we decided to do the strength training beforehand most of the times but the guys, they always complained their shot was messed up. So, we’re focused on doing only lower body load but even that messed up their shot. And you know if you do a heavy squat and you go up to a jump shot, all of a sudden you jump a little lighter but that messes up your release point. So, what about using EXOGEN in highly technical sports? How do the coaches and the athletes react to it? Does it mess up their technique?
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah, two things. I’ll tell you, in NBA, pro basketball, as you know, I’ve got a short time back when I worked with the Grizzlies and worked in the NBA and worked with several of our national players. While there basketball was my wheelhouse in Canada. I tell you the example of a player. We had a player, center, who’s 7 feet 2 inches, big center. We had two big centers. One was big Country Reeves and the other one was Eric Mobity. And of course the conditions in the pros, it’s a very different thing and both of them are two different athletes. Now, before every game, Eric would go to the gym and I had to follow him to the gym. So, oftentimes in those pro teams, you’re like a gym support. They’re not really calling you a programmer and I remember thinking … And Eric would be off a lot but he was going in literally just before game time to train. He would train every day, he did this in college. What I found out … I asked Eric one day, I said “Why do you work out in the gym?” and he said as a big power center, he wanted to look big and feel big. And so, it had nothing to do with performance. It wasn’t why he was doing the gym. He wanted to be pumped up. He wanted to have that feeling. It gave him that strength but from a psychological perspective, he was massive but he was going up against another guy, something he developed in college, big guy. That was a big part of why he was training. So, you can’t take that away because that’s part of his mental part of the game. So, I said “Well, instead of lifting heaving pumping up because that’s going to affect your neurological response in your game and you have a lot of inconsistency …” He wasn’t a great shooter already. Then I said “Well, I’m going to change the way you train before a game.” And we kind of built in a few exercise that didn’t fatigue the nervous system like body building or pumping workout and it made a lot of difference. I remember … I can’t go back with the stats, I wasn’t involved not long, it wasn’t in the program but that’s long … it was exactly a problem we had that we had solve it a very unique way because you couldn’t take away why he wanted that. Now, go back to EXOGEN, I can tell you this right now. With the loading and the ability we have load, we can always accentuate or match or find a sweet spot in loading, with the most elite athletes to the general athletes. And this is an interesting thing. The last thing you want to do is mess up the canvas. So, with something like EXOGEN, and the good coaches we work with already understand this, they’re not going to bring this product three weeks before a major competition. There’s just too many variables. And they don’t want to mess with that. So, that experimental period is very important. And within 30 minutes of introducing the product to literally one of the best athletes in the world, they will self choose a pattern that they say “This feels good for this” whereas initially when we put that on, they were like “Well, that doesn’t feel good.” And that’s why we developed guideline number one is if it feels wrong, it is. Reload it. And a small tweak will automatically change that feeling.
Gerrit Keferstein: I’m going to adopt this as guideline number one for everything – If it feels wrong, it is.
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah, you’re right. It’s like a relationship. Now, you have to feel things out long enough to give it a chance but you know it like the thing with this is if this is throwing off your mechanic, well, then there’s something not right.
Gerrit Keferstein: Just give it some time. Let’s do it.
Joe Dolcetti: It’s different. I’ll tell you a story about one of the tennis players we work with here, for Southeast Asia number one, very high level Asian tennis player and I think in the top 200 in the world and we spent all morning trying to get a loading profile that worked on the arm until we discovered the problem was not the loading of the single arm. It had to be a balanced system. And her husband who is one of the top tennis development coaches in Asia turned and said “I don’t know the other arm, the one that has the racket. Get some balance for her.” And the moment we put that load there, the profile on the other side wasn’t the issue at all. It was the balance that was produced change in the arm. So, we immediately learned in a unilateral sport, you need to have balance in the system still. And, again, I knew it and I said “We got to stick with her. It’s not wrong for tennis. There’s something wrong with what we’re doing.” And the moment we got that, she actually said “Wow, I even like the loading more than I like being unload” because there was more accentuation in the power, torque was there, it was bringing the legs and the development of …
Gerrit Keferstein: So, it probably gave her some balance she did have before, some little like this extra kick and efficiency maybe.
Joe Dolcetti: To be honest, all of those things. And remember thought, this is somebody who’d spent 20 years of her life training in tennis. She was highly toned like a high jumper, a boxer, a sprinter. They know their movement. It doesn’t take much to throw it off.
Gerrit Keferstein: I have this many times, I always like situations where we have an athlete in the sport and we interchange things. So, for example, for working with a golfer, I want him shoot five balls, have five, six good swings at a specific distance he wants to work at and then we work on something but he gives me feedback – “So, what did you feel during that swing?” or even ask the coach there “What did you see in that swing?” And then we try to do something that maybe looks unrelated to that swing and then I bring them back to the swing and see “Did you feel better?” And sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t and we experiment and we try some more but in those situations where it does, maybe you freed up their leg a little bit, you activated some of this area a little bit and “Oh yeah, this feels better.” The problem though with this type of work is it doesn’t stick right away. It sticks maybe for five or six swings and it starts disappearing slowly until you have to do the same strategy again. Maybe this time it’s seven or eight swings where it works. You have to do the strategy again. Now, you get to nine or ten. From there you build your newfound technique, your newfound efficiency. I love this way of working. Now, with this thing, I can see myself already putting it on, let the guy swing – “Oh, this feels good” – just leave it on, just “Okay, I’m gone. See you in two weeks.” I don’t have to intervene every time in between. Like I said, it’s ownership, you put the ownership back to the athlete a little bit and that’s awesome.
Joe Dolcetti: Well, two things that bring to mind when you mention that scenario. One, is people ask that often because they get it. If you tweak the system something changes but if you take the load off, when does it become permanent? And what if I can tell you right now what we’re seeing anecdotally is that our training block which for people in the sports science world will know what a basic mesocycle is or multiple week, someone in the 46 weeks. We’ve seen that if you work on a specific technical component for four to six weeks, minimum stressful but within that range of three, three to four session a week, load for corrective change … And, as we talked about also, there’s two aspects to corrective change. One, you can load so the proprioception actually improves the movement or two, you resist it so they have to self correct. Then you come back four to six weeks later, it’s generally about four to five weeks, and you introduce the concept at training without introducing any loading. So, there’s no EXOGEN involved that week. They come back to training and you look at the quality of the effort. Has something translated? And the answer is yes. And we’re seeing that change come in. We could have immediate acute change in performance in 10 to 20 minutes with our product and that acute change is the one you’re talking about. Somebody feels it already like “I get it. Oh, so now your hand’s starting to rotate that you weren’t doing before you went to training for weeks” because now you have the load there and whether the load’s doing it or the load’s come on and off and you’re aware but they come back to more and that’s where we know there is permanent change to this. What we’re saying is we can big that technical change in that four to six weeks to become permanent and it’s exciting. Here’s an example. I had this group I was working with in Australia. One of the people in that group that’s looking to bring the product over there is a former professional, I think, national cricketer for Australia but certainly a professional cricketer and he saw some of the work that Stefan Jones is doing out of UK, Stefan being one at the top basketball coaches in the world right now, I think. He’s certainly very well recognized. He had seen Stefan’s Instagram, the guy from Australia, and that’s how they connected with us. He followed Stefan, checked out Stefan’s Instagram and he had actually thought BS. He was looking at some of the stuff. Stephan had put an Instagram post about a change he managed to make in a single session with a fast bowler that normally takes 5 to 10 weeks to change. So, this guy in Australia was telling me and he said “Yeah, I saw this Instagram. They’re not going to be able to do that.” So, they had some interaction and then an interaction with me and he said “Man, I was blown away.” He interacted with Stefan and Stefan said “No, this changed. We’ve been able to create the improvement immediately.” Now, the question is again … And again, this is what we’re seeing is we’re seeing technical change because we’re having a tool we never had. You can literally tweak that but we also know there is a point where it becomes long term. And this is the other point I’m working with now is this is something that’s exciting from planning periodization point where we’re telling athletes and another part we’ve adapted it when you work with EXOGEN, do not throw into your program as another weight training tool. It’s not a kettle bell, it’s not a bike or it’s not a TRX. Those are still very tightened jacket or something like that. These are very much traditional training tools. And they’re great products in one respect and they have a place in the toolbox. Use EXOGEN to work on technical issues and once that technical issue is efficient, then start loading because you don’t …
Gerrit Keferstein: The efficiency before how.
Joe Dolcetti: Yes, exactly. So, we’ll develop the skill and then we’ll make the skill better through strength. So, our first teaching with all this stuff is “Let’s get technical first. Then we’ll start working or performance change.” I mean, if somebody wants to lose weight and they’re going to put EXOGEN on the shorts to get a more efficient 30-minute run three times a week.
Gerrit Keferstein: They can use it to run really fast.
Joe Dolcetti: They can but I’ll tell you this. It’s not nearly as comfortable and you’ve got to remember too, you can use the weight but that is going to cause issues. And you’ll get in there so you can still … like we get a lot of people in the 50s will say “It’s great. It’s doesn’t interfere. I don’t feel like it’s inhibiting me. It’s not putting extra stress on those joints.” And we know from some of our research right now when you’re loaded above the center of mass, there’s actually a lot of negative things going on, center of mass meaning bellybutton. When you’re lowering the lower body, without a doubt this is the most exceptional tool to do that. You’re not getting those injuries. So, what does that mean long term for an average weekend runner or a hiker or cross-trail runner who doesn’t want to get the negative effects but wants that benefit? I will tell them straight up “If you’re interested in using it for that or a part of, go for the lower body kit. Don’t buy the top.” So, yeah, there is that. I mean, when you get into the technical side, you work on the technical issues first and then you start working on the performance issues – speed, power and endurance.
Gerrit Keferstein: Yeah, the technical thing, I mean, we always come back to that. You talked about sports medical applications this morning and early phase rehab you’re trying to again. It’s not about movement efficiency. It’s about bringing that efficiency back by either developing the efficiency in the first place because inefficiency caused the injury or just rediscovering the efficiency after you have an injury. And physical therapists, they do that in their daily work every day. They have their strategies to do that. They have neuromuscular techniques to do that. They have manual techniques to do that. All in slow controlled environment. They can teach the angle of the knee and hip extension or knee extension or the leg extension in a controlled environment but what do we do in early phase return to game when it’s really about putting the athlete back on the field. Maybe you passed all those early phase return to game criteria but what happens is really a high-speed movement. And we look at it with slow-motion cameras. We see “Ah, we don’t really like that.” What do we do? Do we bring the athlete to decide and say “Hey, listen, I don’t think your knee position when you do that high speed cut. Please improve that next time.” That’s not going to work. So, what do we do? What do we do? I think it’s an interesting application where we could put specific weights in specific positions well to improve the efficiency in high speed situations.
Joe Dolcetti: Let’s add something to something we talked about in the beginning. When I talked about this concept that I developed at a young age between understanding and realization and let’s add two words in the front of that right now because you can have cognitive understanding but that’s not the same as proprioceptive realization. So, you understand when you say “Look, I notice during that you pronate, I think you need to keep that knee …”
Gerrit Keferstein: That makes you slow and inefficient. That’s robot training. I don’t want robots. I want fluid and fast.
Joe Dolcetti: Not only that like when you create a cognitive understanding, it doesn’t relate to the nervous system. I wish Nick Windham was here right now because he would tell us the system involved in that and that’s one of the reasons we’re engaging with someone like him because it offers such a fascinating and cutting edge tool to bring this connection. Then we say “Never mind. Come on over here.” You don’t tell them anything. You just slack a little and …
Gerrit Keferstein: I don’t want him to know that his knee is caving in on that cut.
Joe Dolcetti: And then they feel and then you take that load off and you say “Can you repeat that?” and he’ll go “Yeah, yeah because …”
Gerrit Keferstein: How does it feel?
Joe Dolcetti: It’s in the nervous system. their proprioceptors have made that adjustment and it’s a fascinating area. As you know about me, I’m more a practical guy than the pure scientific guy and I don’t want to know pretend I have such command of those areas to go on too much about it but I do have the practical understanding that I know can create that change, I always have. And then with the product we’re seeing really smart people right now starting to do that that’s where, like I said to you on the break,” it’s amazing to work with these people and learn, get that education component and see how they engage with and why they engage with it. Go back to something you said earlier about these 1%ers. If you ask a coach “Would you like a 1% change in technical skill or 1% change in fitness?”, what would they do? I can tell you right now what every coach in the world would say – skill. 1% change in fitness is marginal, might have a performance improvement but a 1% change in a technical skill, that’s the difference between winning and losing.
Gerrit Keferstein: And also the 1% change in technical skill might equal a 10% fitness improvement because he’s losing way less energy.
Joe Dolcetti: And this is why I think right now what we’re seeing with EXOGEN is not incident. These performance breakthroughs, these PBs, these World Championship performance, these knockout punches, these first ever wins in competition because we’re making these 1% changes and that’s the variability … These people aren’t 50% away from their competition. Any given day any one of these people can win. You get those 1% right and somebody tends to win a little more often than somebody else. And that’s why I think … this really for me .. and why JC and I are having this discussion about maybe what we’re seeing in the lab isn’t clicking with us because we’re not realizing the small change we’re seeing is a massive difference in a chaos environment. All right, we’re noticing, yeah, there’s a small change in their early acceleration phase, their 40-meter time was 5.1, now it’s 5.0 – doesn’t sound like a lot, not a lot to get everybody excited but you realize “Wait a minute. That 1% is applied across the complete chaos situation and it’s applicable and all that.” And now we suddenly realize “Whoa, whoa, whoa! That can change win.” You get your leg in front of his leg just enough to clear his leg to make that shot on that open net and now you got a 1-0 game with no more time left to play. Guess what, somebody is going to the World Cup and somebody isn’t.
Gerrit Keferstein: I’d be interested talking to a level-coach who is not excited about that. I would love to meet them. There’s probably a lot to learn when a high level-coach is not getting excited about the 1% chance that you really just talked about.
Joe Dolcetti: I’ll give you a great example of somebody who we haven’t heard that but it was an experience I had with somebody that we engaged with in Australia. I was over there in New Zealand and, as you know, we had this great connection with a lot of the programs over there and I was doing a demo with a bunch of the coaches from athletics and Joseph Miller who is New Zealand’s 100-meter champion, he’s now the fastest man in Australia and New Zealand, he’s one of the athletes who bought EXOGEN and his coaches clearly said and Joseph has said it “Everything I’m doing here is faster with this” and he dropped from 10.3 sprinter to a 10.19 sprinter and they attributed a lot of this to the performance change in technical aspects and now they’re targeting running sub-10 and I like it because without them we don’t have the direct feedback but they know this is a big part of what that change is coming from. And I was over there in New Zealand and I keep forget her name, I’ve to apologize, but it was I think Valerie Harper … Valerie…
Gerrit Keferstein: Adams?
Joe Dolcetti: Valerie Adams, a legend athlete. So, I had the chance then on that day, her coach was with us and they had this product.
Gerrit Keferstein: Is that the Swiss guy?
Joe Dolcetti: No, I don’t think he’s a Swiss guy. I can’t remember his name and I apologies. You know what, I actually forgot. He was the national coach, obviously an incredible coach because he’s got this world champion. And he was there to talk about the training and when you said it’s really interesting to talk to high-level coaches, their focus on small 1%ers is unbelievable. So, I was sitting there talking with her coach and we started talking about the mechanics of the throw and the upper body and the arms and the torques and he literally just stops and he goes “Not, it was the ankle. It’s got nothing to do with …” If you’re throwing, something’s happening in the arm. No, not at all. Her one issue at that time two years ago that they were working on was the slight rotation, rotation of that lead ankle. That was it. That’s their number one issue right now. That’s their 1%er that makes the difference between whether she’s going to be world champion again or she’s going to number three or four in world. What I love about the two things is it humbled me. First off, I got a lot of experience in sports. It humbled me just thinking “Wow, I was off in thinking …” I was thinking gross change, large scale change, with a young maybe new shot-putter and I was close to the level of specificity that he was looking at and it humbled me but I was also excited because I thought “That’s what happens when you give a great tool to a great coach.” Now, I get it, he didn’t take the program at that time but he knew exactly where he would have wanted to explore. How could loading have helped on that?
Gerrit Keferstein: Like you said, on that level when you want to bring in a new tool, you’re not going to do it tomorrow. You’re going to have it in the back of your head and you’re going to plan for the next maybe 18-24 months to introduce it at some point when the time is right.
Joe Dolcetti: So, yesterday, like I said, we were with one of the top AFL teams in Australia and they’re really excited to bring it in right now and we talked about firstly a lot of ideas and they’re asking a lot about the product. So, I went on and on, shared all these great things but then I turned over and I said “What’s your issue right now in the club?” because they know what their issue is. And they literally said there were two or three key things they’re working on. And I know, having been there, having been at pro clubs as strength coach and I’ve been an Olympic strength coach. You’re not thinking about a thousand general things – “This is my issue I need to sort out now for either this player or this season.” And they were very clear. They knew exactly where it is. Then I said to them “Let’s start that. Let’s look at making a change on that.” And nobody said something general like “Oh, the athletes got to be stronger.” That’s what a high school coach says about a high school basketball team – “I wish all these guys were a little bit stronger.” And then it gets really specific. So, I said “Let’s stay with that.” And they said “Can we tailor that?” and I said “100% and not only can we tailor, I think you’re going to get excited about the change.”
Gerrit Keferstein: Joe, it’s been a fascinating discussion. We got to cut it out and we probably go on for hours here. It was a fascinating discussion. I mean, look at it, you have so many bright smart people, not only bright smart but they’re really people with actual skin in the game out in the trenches on board. If any of the coaches who are listening to that podcast, if they want to learn more about it or if they engage with you, how can they contact you, how can they contact any of your company representatives to try out the product, to buy the product, to somehow get engaged with you?
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah, I think the first thing, like I said, contact us direct. My email is Joe@SportBoleh.com. In Malaysia ‘Boleh’ means ‘can’. And MovementRevolution.com is the website. So, you can contact us through that.
Gerrit Keferstein: Do you have Instagram or anything like this, social media?
Joe Dolcetti: Yeah, we’ve got them all. You can get them all at the website. You got to the website, you can get all that but, like I said, direct email to me is always a good way to start. We’ve got some great people. We’re happy to share people that have worked with the product and many of the people that I’ve mentioned today are programs work we’re working with, either they’re sponsored athletes or customers. Again, there’s a lot of great people we’re talking to that are interested and we want to keep respect of all those relationships because they are important people but what I think is critical right now too is for anybody who’s listening, if they’ve got an idea or they’re interested and they just want to call for information or have a chat, this is kind of the time to do it because we’re really still … right now we’re research focused, we’re looking for people who are interested to engage and learn more about it in potentially unique sports as well and we’re still learning. So, we’re open to the idea if someone turns around and says “Well, what about this?”, I’m like “Hey, dude, that’s a good point. Let’s maybe explore it.” A lot of the kind of customers … we’ve been getting people … I know this chiropractor in UK who has a chiropractor clinic and he and I engage regularly on ideas with rehabbing, chiropractic and sort of similar chronic issues he sees and breathing techniques that he’s talking about … So, we’ve got so many side things but for him, what he’s doing is really relevant. So, anybody who wants to engage, I think it’s a great time to do it now.
Gerrit Keferstein: Awesome. So, if you’re listening really, I can only suggest you shoot Joe a message. He is a really approachable guy, really fun guy to talk to and, like we always talk about, he has experience in the trenches. He’s been there done that. He’s been coaching and found a practical solution for a very practical problem. So, thanks for tuning in. Thanks, Joe, for your time.
Joe Dolcetti: Thank you, Gerrit. Awesome to see you guys again and I look forward to doing some work with you and most importantly, I look forward to hearing your all over the world travels and listening to the podcast.
Gerrit Keferstein: All right. Thanks for tuning in. Bye.
Joe Dolcetti: Cheers!
So, everybody, I hope you enjoyed and it was a pretty long podcast and if you’re still there, congratulations man, you hung in there and hope you enjoyed this just as much as I did, really. If you did, please, please leave me a review on iTunes. There were some people last week that that left some really cool reviews and it’s always motivating for me to do that. It’s a lot of work I put into this thing. I mean, I do it for egoistic reasons really, to be honest. I just love talking to people. Just hitting the record button is fairly easy and all the editing. It would really just motivate me to do it with you. Also, we will probably bring a lot more people to also listen to that thing and maybe they like it too. Yeah. I mean, that’s it. Add me on Twitter @GKeferstein. You know it, it’s on our homepage. And shoot me a message to suggest what topics should I read articles about, which people should I meet. I’m interested in your opinion. I do this thing for you and me, me and for you, for both of us. So, I hope you tune in next time. Talk soon.
Gerrit Keferstein is a Medical Doctor specialised in Performance & Functional Medicine. He is most known for his work on the optimisation of recovery and adaptation in elite athletes.